CNC Lathes

[MichaelBick]

We don't have any experience doing any serious machining(lathe + mill) except for one of our mentors. That said, a cnc would not be a substitute for manual equipment. Both manual lathes and mills are tools that are the top of of my list regardless. The only things that I can think of off the top of my head that would need a CNC lathe is a shifting block like the ones 254 uses and WCD output shafts if we got live tooling with the lathe. I would also assume that it would speed up the operations that you can do on a manual lathe, though I don't know because we've never done CAM and setup for a CNC part. The above considered, I would want to know if the cnc lathe has sped up the machining process for your team considerably, because if it has I would want to include it in my proposal.

[Michael Hill]

One of my team's sponsors (who also gives us building space) has a CNC lathe we utilized last year to make pulley wheels on the cheap. We had him make about 40 of them from what I recall. That would have been a REAL hassle on a manual lathe (if not impossible to get the precision).

[Joey Milia]

I wouldn't suggest including a Haas CNC lathe. It's only advantage would be in producing large quantities of complex parts, short of that whatever you need can be done on a manual machine. In addition Haas CNC lathes aren't very good, and have been known to machine tapers (Haas mills excellent though).

I would instead suggest looking at quality manual lathes with full tooling, or CNC milling machines.

[Adrian Clark]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

The only things that I can think of off the top of my head that would need a CNC lathe is a shifting block like the ones 254 uses and WCD output shafts if we got live tooling with the lathe.

That would be an operation done on a mill (CNC or manual) with a 4th axis with roughing/circlip-groves done on a manual lathe.

I can't think of any part that you would make for an FRC robot that couldn't be made on a manual lathe. The only advantage of a CNC lathe I can think of is the high turnaround time and the repeatability, but if you or anyone on your team has never run one before I can guarantee it will be a while before you gain either of those benefits.

CNC machines are not magical part producing machining, they require a lot of knowledge and expertise to operate. I would highly recommend that you spend your money elsewhere.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

The only things that I can think of off the top of my head that would need a CNC lathe is a shifting block like the ones 254 uses and WCD output shafts if we got live tooling with the lathe.

This is a $100,000-150,000 machine.

I would stick with finding sponsors to make you stuff. Especially if you are only making one robot worth of parts.

[MichaelBick]

We do make two robots, but now that I think about it, we wouldn't even be machining duplicate parts in high quantities(other than drive). Actually we almost lost a sponsor last year due to the workload we gave them, so we're trying to not repeat that during this next build season. I know multiple people have mentioned south bend for manual lathes and I also happen to know that 254 has a Jet(or at least had one). Do both of these companies make ok fine lathes for FRC purposes?

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

We do make two robots, but now that I think about it, we wouldn't even be machining duplicate parts in high quantities(other than drive). Actually we almost lost a sponsor last year due to the workload we gave them, so we're trying to not repeat that during this next build season. I know multiple people have mentioned south bend for manual lathes and I also happen to know that 254 has a Jet(or at least had one). Do both of these companies make ok fine lathes for FRC purposes?

I've actually heard that sme of 254's members were not fans of the Jet (because of the tail stock, mainly). We use a Grizzley manual lathe, which we have really come to love. It's broken a few times, but when properly taken care of, it really is an excellent machine to learn on or work with.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

We do make two robots, but now that I think about it, we wouldn't even be machining duplicate parts in high quantities(other than drive). Actually we almost lost a sponsor last year due to the workload we gave them, so we're trying to not repeat that during this next build season. I know multiple people have mentioned south bend for manual lathes and I also happen to know that 254 has a Jet(or at least had one). Do both of these companies make ok fine lathes for FRC purposes?

There are probably hundreds if not many hundreds of machine shops within a reasonable distance of you. I would be surprised if you can't find multiple shops to assist you with CNC machining.
JET does not make good machines.

JET/Grizzly/etc are all made by the same factories, with different paint jobs and name plates. The only difference is country of origin. If it came from Taiwan it might be pretty decent to good. If it came from China it's almost certainly garbage. Maybe it'll last for awhile under light use and maybe you can still make good parts with it, but it will require 20x more work/operator skill to keep it running well.

Unfortunately there isn't a large market out there for really high quality new manual lathes. There's a few, but they're all $15,000+ for a 13x40 sized machine.

If you're writing a proposal for funding I'm guessing buying used is not an option. If so, you're either spending a lot of money for a high quality machine or half as much for a machine that will probably work fine for 4-5 years and then start showing issues due to quality, depending on how demanding you are of your machinery.

If you can buy used and have someone who can identify a good machine and help fix anything that might be wrong with it, you can find a machine that will be around in 30 years and still making good parts.

[George C]

Standard-Modern is still in business and makes great lathes from 13 to 26" including CNC versions. I believe they're still made in Canada and available in the US. They were the standard (no pun intended) lathe in many school shops for years. Loads of used ones available.

http://www.standard-modern.com/index.html

South Bend is still making lathes as well. My 9" was built in 1926 and still works well.

http://www.southbendlathe.com/

[Cory]

Originally Posted by George C

Standard-Modern is still in business and makes great lathes from 13 to 26" including CNC versions. I believe they're still made in Canada and available in the US. They were the standard (no pun intended) lathe in many school shops for years. Loads of used ones available.

http://www.standard-modern.com/index.html

South Bend is still making lathes as well. My 9" was built in 1926 and still works well.

http://www.southbendlathe.com/

I remember looking at Standard Modern and the machines looked great... Other than being something like $18000 for a North American made model.

I believe South Bend is South Bend in name only. I recall that they were sold to an Asian machine tool manufacturer.

[George C]

Originally Posted by Cory

I remember looking at Standard Modern and the machines looked great... Other than being something like $18000 for a North American made model.

I believe South Bend is South Bend in name only. I recall that they were sold to an Asian machine tool manufacturer.

Interesting thread on the history and current manufacture of South Bend lathes

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-today-200466/

And another one on Standard Modern. Seems they're now made in Pennsylvania. Note the price of a 13x34.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...-Modern-Lathes

[Brian Selle]

We acquired (as in free) a small CNC lathe early this year. I have a fair amount of experience with manual lathes and mills, but as others have said, these type machines require a knowledgeable person to set up, maintain and teach it -or- a LOT of work by someone to get up to speed. I've been pecking away at learning it for the past 3-4 months and feel capable but very slow. We now have a few programs to turn retainer ring grooves on the end of hex axles, make Colson hubs, etc but seriously... with the amount of work I've put into this I could have turned 1000 axles. The kids dig running it but we probably run it manually more often than under CNC. I just put in a request for a nice manual lathe... along with a manual mill that should service 99% of what we need.

[MichaelBick]

Cory would you mind posting some links to the 15k+ machines you were talking about? We just might be able to get the funding for a lathe that expensive, and for a machine that we would use constantly it would be a worthwhile investment into the future of our team.

[qnetjoe]

Before you consider a CNC you need to ask yourself about the tool chain that you use and how does a CNC plug into that? How do you plan to get and maintain CAM software?

Way to often I see school buy a nice expensive CNC without CAM software and/or someone that knows how to use it; then it becomes a nice expensive paper weight.

Are students going to be trained on a manual lathe before using the CNC? If not what are you going to due to ensure that your machine is not always broken? Generally I recommend that a student know how to work a manual and learns the basics before working on a CNC.

Onto the machine. I generally recommend the Haas toolroom lathes. They can be ran in a near manual mode which is good for teaching basic lathe work and then you can slowly introduce CNC concepts. One cool thing about Haas is that the control is almost the exact same between the mill and lathe making learning both alot easier and allow you to focus more on teaching machine and not teaching the CNC control system.

Hope this helps if you want to reach out to me directly just PM me.

[Gray Adams]

Originally Posted by qnetjoe

Onto the machine. I generally recommend the Haas toolroom lathes. They can be ran in a near manual mode which is good for teaching basic lathe work and then you can slowly introduce CNC concepts. One cool thing about Haas is that the control is almost the exact same between the mill and lathe making learning both alot easier and allow you to focus more on teaching machine and not teaching the CNC control system.

I love the Haas control panel, but the quality of their lathes is not great. They have serious issues holding a constant diameter when turning, small adjustments in offset (.0001") often leads to much bigger changes in actual part size, and faces quite frequently don't end up flat. I was making some parts that had to be 2.48" +/- .0004", and if you bumped the offset up by .0001", you could expect to see the diameter increase by at least .0004". It was an absolute nightmare to hold those tolerances. Keeping another part flat and parallel to within .005" was incredibly difficult as well. It took a lot of taper adjustments on the facing operation to really dial it in to cut the face flat.

For FRC purposes, these tolerances probably won't matter, but anyone buying one of these machines should be aware of its tolerance issues. They're cheap, and I guess they're decent machines, but you definitely aren't going to see the same level of quality as you will in their vertical mills (which can also be a little lacking sometimes).