Building the Structure of the Robot?

[ksafin]

Thanks for the quick replies guys, I'll forward all of this to our Mechanical Captain.

While I'm one of the more mechanically savvy guys on the team, the final call is to the captain

Also, another question/concern. With 80/20, we had the flexibility of just putting a drivetrain together with the parts, and then when we needed to change something or add something, it was a matter off adding a connector or taking this off or adding this. Very simple, with little modification.

I imagine that by using aluminum sq tubing w/ gussets and all, we'll have to plan our drivetrain out much more thoroughly than we did with 80/20 (unless we plan to have a lot of random holes from taking gussets off and on xD)

Is this correct, and how do you cope w/ this?

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Thanks for the quick replies guys, I'll forward all of this to our Mechanical Captain.

While I'm one of the more mechanically savvy guys on the team, the final call is to the captain

Also, another question/concern. With 80/20, we had the flexibility of just putting a drivetrain together with the parts, and then when we needed to change something or add something, it was a matter off adding a connector or taking this off or adding this. Very simple, with little modification.

I imagine that by using aluminum sq tubing w/ gussets and all, we'll have to plan our drivetrain out much more thoroughly than we did with 80/20 (unless we plan to have a lot of random holes from taking gussets off and on xD)

Is this correct, and how do you cope w/ this?

We've been known to add a few extra holes to our robot through bad planning. In 2011, we even took a piece of our arm structure, rotated it around, and drilled a new hole for lack of another piece.

It all comes down to what kinds of forces your pieces will see and how picky you are about appearance. When we botched parts on this year's robot, we took the metal that was still usable in-place and redrilled new holes and placed putty into the holes left behind to smooth it out. Metal that was too weakened from the holes for our liking was cut down and reused in other places when possible. Very few pieces were junked entirely.

But, of course, you can always plan it out and avoid all this.

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Thanks for the quick replies guys, I'll forward all of this to our Mechanical Captain.

While I'm one of the more mechanically savvy guys on the team, the final call is to the captain

Also, another question/concern. With 80/20, we had the flexibility of just putting a drivetrain together with the parts, and then when we needed to change something or add something, it was a matter off adding a connector or taking this off or adding this. Very simple, with little modification.

I imagine that by using aluminum sq tubing w/ gussets and all, we'll have to plan our drivetrain out much more thoroughly than we did with 80/20 (unless we plan to have a lot of random holes from taking gussets off and on xD)

Is this correct, and how do you cope w/ this?

CAD, CAD, CAD. As you can tell I'm a CADder. In all seriousness though, the best way to get better really quickly is to start CADding. It allows you to build robots quicker and cheaper. Also in response to not having access to a waterjet, I reccomend that you find a waterjetting sponsor. Any 2d work is really easy to find a sponsor willing to do work for you, because the time commitment is a lot less for them that of a full blown machine shop.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Is this correct, and how do you cope w/ this?

CAD

As Adam said, if you can't figure out how to make this stuff with manual tools (which you really should be able to) then get sponsors and learn how to CAD.

Call these guys. http://www.metalsupplyfl.com/

They are in your town, they waterjet cut, weld, and can do a lot of other fabrication.

Simple google searches and a phone is all you need to find sponsors. Just get up and do it.

Again though, I see no reason why you are not capable of making such parts with your current machines.

[ksafin]

OK.

Say we obtain a sponsor that can do various fabrication, waterjet cutting, CNC machining, etc.

At that point I have another question. Our team organization is based around the fact that everyone works with what we have and is contributing to an assembly.

With most of the design/assembly itself being done in CAD and then sent off, what does the mechanical team do? In essence, if the drivetrain is being made in CAD and made my a sponsor, what does the actual mechanical team do while the design team is CADing it and sending it off?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by ksafin

OK.

Say we obtain a sponsor that can do various fabrication, waterjet cutting, CNC machining, etc.

At that point I have another question. Our team organization is based around the fact that everyone works with what we have and is contributing to an assembly.

With most of the design/assembly itself being done in CAD and then sent off, what does the mechanical team do? In essence, if the drivetrain is being made in CAD and made my a sponsor, what does the actual mechanical team do while the design team is CADing it and sending it off?

Using what you currently have effectively is great, 973 prides itself on it, but that doesn't mean you can not strive to do more. No one suggests that you should get the entire robot outsourced (it's pretty much impossible to do so anyway), but intelligently using a sponsor or two can really improve your products.

Are you saying that CADing designs somehow takes away from the work of mechanical people? I'm unsure how to read that.

The mechanical people should be involved with designing the robot in CAD, and if the guys that just love putting stuff together refuse to be a part of the design process, they can spend time prototoyping over and over to end up with a killer manipulator.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by ksafin

OK.

Say we obtain a sponsor that can do various fabrication, waterjet cutting, CNC machining, etc.

At that point I have another question. Our team organization is based around the fact that everyone works with what we have and is contributing to an assembly.

With most of the design/assembly itself being done in CAD and then sent off, what does the mechanical team do? In essence, if the drivetrain is being made in CAD and made my a sponsor, what does the actual mechanical team do while the design team is CADing it and sending it off?

Nobody ever said you NEED to use these places. The fact is that these resources are out there for when your team decides to transition into it and create more advanced designs that require precision fabrication. I posted this to simply show you that machining sponsors are easy to get.

Even if you do send parts out, you don't have to send out everything to get cut by a sponsor. Getting brackets cut by a sponsor or in-house is up to you.

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by ksafin

OK.

Say we obtain a sponsor that can do various fabrication, waterjet cutting, CNC machining, etc.

At that point I have another question. Our team organization is based around the fact that everyone works with what we have and is contributing to an assembly.

With most of the design/assembly itself being done in CAD and then sent off, what does the mechanical team do? In essence, if the drivetrain is being made in CAD and made my a sponsor, what does the actual mechanical team do while the design team is CADing it and sending it off?

If you still plan to do in house work(as Adam said it can be very hard to not do any in house work) then they can start machining things. However there should still pe a primary emphasis on CAD and prototyping during the first few weeks of build.

[Garret]

We do all fabrication except for welding in house. If you can get a welding sponsor you can do very well using COTS parts and simple brackets for everything else. Even if you don't have welding you can get by with simple gusset brackets made on a bandsaw and aluminum angle. All you really need is a drill press (or hand drill) and band saw (or jigsaw). We do almost all our work with hand-held power tools, and we do not have access to a lathe, mill, or router at our build site so we do not design to use them.

My point is that you don't need to use expensive computer controlled equipment to build a fully custom and competitive robot, we used to build out of a garage and we have always done custom. You should always do CAD no matter how you plan on having parts made.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Garret

You should always do CAD no matter how you plan on having parts made.

Originally Posted by Garret

You should always do CAD no matter how you plan on having parts made.

Originally Posted by Garret

You should always do CAD no matter how you plan on having parts made.

Originally Posted by Garret

You should always do CAD no matter how you plan on having parts made.

I want teams to read this. Then read it again, and again.

[ksafin]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys.

I'd obviously like to make use of nearby machine shops and possible sponsors, it's just that it's hard for me to wrap my head around the team structure of doing this.

I'm not saying it's difficult to come up with a structure or anything, either. I'm just trying to lay it out logistically in my head and would like your input.

We're going to have a team of about 30 members. The vast majority, about 22 or so, are part of the "Mechanical Team" while the other 8 are part of "Controls" which is electrical and software.

The way I see it, would we have mechanical members CADing? Making rough designs out of t slots to refine in CAD using other materials? Prototyping manipulators and mechanisms with t slots?

What I see happening is a lot of prototyping using T-Slots, 80/20, and other materials, then applying the concept in CAD but using different materials.

I doubt I'm making this clear, because I guess I don't know how to say it very clearly.

For our team, which never really had CAD guys or an emphasis on CAD, it's just hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of making it a centerpoint in our platform. (Please don't bash me or provide pointed feedback for leaving out CAD, I just wanted to get by our first year).

If you could give me some kind of outline or idea of how you make use of actual construction and CADing simultaneously, I'd appreciate it greatly. I'd just like some team structure or flow to go off of.

[MichaelBick]

Week 1: Preliminary Design, Prototype, have a CAD for the drivetrain done by at least the end of this week(preferably earlier) so that you can start to/send out parts to be machined at the end of the week.

Week 2-3: CAD and machine parts as you finalize the CAD

Week 4: CAD is done. Finish up machining by the end of the week so that you can assemble the robot during the weekend.

Week 5-6: Program and ITERATE!

Feel free to adjust this schedule to your team, but you should definitely have at least a week before you bag the robot to program and iterate.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Thanks for all of the feedback guys.

I'd obviously like to make use of nearby machine shops and possible sponsors, it's just that it's hard for me to wrap my head around the team structure of doing this.

I'm not saying it's difficult to come up with a structure or anything, either. I'm just trying to lay it out logistically in my head and would like your input.

We're going to have a team of about 30 members. The vast majority, about 22 or so, are part of the "Mechanical Team" while the other 8 are part of "Controls" which is electrical and software.

The way I see it, would we have mechanical members CADing? Making rough designs out of t slots to refine in CAD using other materials? Prototyping manipulators and mechanisms with t slots?

What I see happening is a lot of prototyping using T-Slots, 80/20, and other materials, then applying the concept in CAD but using different materials.

I doubt I'm making this clear, because I guess I don't know how to say it very clearly.

For our team, which never really had CAD guys or an emphasis on CAD, it's just hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of making it a centerpoint in our platform. (Please don't bash me or provide pointed feedback for leaving out CAD, I just wanted to get by our first year).

If you could give me some kind of outline or idea of how you make use of actual construction and CADing simultaneously, I'd appreciate it greatly. I'd just like some team structure or flow to go off of.

I'll take a crack at it this one:

Linking you to our bots:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/38030 (Not built by an army of mentors or anything)

Not Very Successful:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/20464
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/27094

You can read through the specs there and see the progression that your team could go through. We have a group of lets say 25 kids on a good day and more or less a group of 10-15 on average with about 2-3 local mentors & 2-3 remote mentors.

We currently CAD about 90-95% (I wish we could finish the entire thing) of our robot. Our team directly benefited from Adam's advice above. We had zero machine shop sponsors in 2008 and never cad'd a single part. We took some extrusion, t-slot, whatever else we could fine and built a robot. While it was fun and everyone seemed involved, the robot was never great and the team was meh at best (4-5 kids showed up on average, we showed up when we felt like and built whatever we wanted).

As we got more serious:

-We started to CAD every part (minus wiring/pneumatic lines)
-Called up every shop in town(literally and 3/4 of the town shops sponsor us and some in various other towns)
-Kids started to show up and involvement got even higher.

Our goal is to:

-Be the best we can
-Teach kids how to use CAD/CNC's/Welding/Wiring/etc... We want them to learn as many skills as possible.
-Be a competitive team
-Teach our kids how to win at everything they do. <- Very important to me
-And one day to get onto Einstein.

Your issue:

-Don't feel CAD is important and/or think it will make it so the mechanical kids are less involved.
-Shouldn't be the cenerpoint?
-Why send off parts to a sponsor?

What we/Other teams do:

-Using CAD has helped us get more kids involved and save a ton of money/time.
-We use the CAD model in a way so everyone can put their two cents in, its hard for a kid to come up to a person in charge while the robot is being built and go "Change the ENTIRE design" or "Change this piece". When its in a harmless model, its much much much easier to do so. We encourage each kid to help us with design. Some of the best parts of our robot (imo), a sophomore/junior thought of it. Not a mentor or some genius.
-CAD allows you play with multiple ideas and check if everything is going to work.
-When we finish conceptual design (paper/whiteboard etc..). We have the kids that are not CAD'n, our hands on lets get building people work on:
--Actual Field Elements
--Prototypes: We made an actual wood 4Bar and working shooter
--Intake Concepts
--Crossing the barrier mods
--Testing ball jams

-Then we regroup during the week off an on and have people put their two cents in and get moving towards a finished product.

Sponsors:

-We send off 10-20 percent of our robot out in terms of making parts. Why? There is nothing wrong with sending our more or less btw.
-We feel we are getting more (outside) people involved with our program.
-Some parts are impossible for us to make, 27x37 belly pan will not fit on our 20x30 router no matter how hard we try! Large laser parts with bends we send out as well as we can't bend accurately.
-Repetition, our machines are not top of the line. If we are making 50 bearing blocks, a sponsor would have no problem doing them. We send out a lot of the parts that a sponsor can set up once or twice and run a ton of that part for us.
-This process has not only helped kids not get burnt out while making parts but has also gotten us higher community involvement and awareness.

TL;DR. Change is hard. CAD is important. Sponsors are money and I'm glad we have 20+ shops and 100+ donors. If you don't want them, its your loss (We had 10 donors and zero shops in 2008). And most of all there are plenty of jobs/stuff that needs to be done. Just gotta look a little harder and try a little harder. Adam's advice above is seriously awesome, we have DIRECTLY benefited.

-RC

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by R.C.

I'll take a crack at it this one:

Linking you to our bots:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/38030 (Not built by an army of mentors or anything)

Not Very Successful:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/20464
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/27094

You can read through the specs there and see the progression that your team could go through. We have a group of lets say 25 kids on a good day and more or less a group of 10-15 on average with about 2-3 local mentors & 2-3 remote mentors.

We currently CAD about 90-95% (I wish we could finish the entire thing) of our robot. Our team directly benefited from Adam's advice above. We had zero machine shop sponsors in 2008 and never cad'd a single part. We took some extrusion, t-slot, whatever else we could fine and built a robot. While it was fun and everyone seemed involved, the robot was never great and the team was meh at best (4-5 kids showed up on average, we showed up when we felt like and built whatever we wanted).

As we got more serious:

-We started to CAD every part (minus wiring/pneumatic lines)
-Called up every shop in town(literally and 3/4 of the town shops sponsor us and some in various other towns)
-Kids started to show up and involvement got even higher.

Our goal is to:

-Be the best we can
-Teach kids how to use CAD/CNC's/Welding/Wiring/etc... We want them to learn as many skills as possible.
-Be a competitive team
-Teach our kids how to win at everything they do. <- Very important to me
-And one day to get onto Einstein.

Your issue:

-Don't feel CAD is important and/or think it will make it so the mechanical kids are less involved.
-Shouldn't be the cenerpoint?
-Why send off parts to a sponsor?

What we/Other teams do:

-Using CAD has helped us get more kids involved and save a ton of money/time.
-We use the CAD model in a way so everyone can put their two cents in, its hard for a kid to come up to a person in charge while the robot is being built and go "Change the ENTIRE design" or "Change this piece". When its in a harmless model, its much much much easier to do so. We encourage each kid to help us with design. Some of the best parts of our robot (imo), a sophomore/junior thought of it. Not a mentor or some genius.
-CAD allows you play with multiple ideas and check if everything is going to work.
-When we finish conceptual design (paper/whiteboard etc..). We have the kids that are not CAD'n, our hands on lets get building people work on:
--Actual Field Elements
--Prototypes: We made an actual wood 4Bar and working shooter
--Intake Concepts
--Crossing the barrier mods
--Testing ball jams

-Then we regroup during the week off an on and have people put their two cents in and get moving towards a finished product.

Sponsors:

-We send off 10-20 percent of our robot out in terms of making parts. Why? There is nothing wrong with sending our more or less btw.
-We feel we are getting more (outside) people involved with our program.
-Some parts are impossible for us to make, 27x37 belly pan will not fit on our 20x30 router no matter how hard we try! Large laser parts with bends we send out as well as we can't bend accurately.
-Repetition, our machines are not top of the line. If we are making 50 bearing blocks, a sponsor would have no problem doing them. We send out a lot of the parts that a sponsor can set up once or twice and run a ton of that part for us.
-This process has not only helped kids not get burnt out while making parts but has also gotten us higher community involvement and awareness.

TL;DR. Change is hard. CAD is important. Sponsors are money and I'm glad we have 20+ shops and 100+ donors. If you don't want them, its your loss (We had 10 donors and zero shops in 2008). And most of all there are plenty of jobs/stuff that needs to be done. Just gotta look a little harder and try a little harder. Adam's advice above is seriously awesome, we have DIRECTLY benefited.

-RC

I agree completely with what RC said. We too had never CADded a robot or had machining sponsors before this year. Before this year, we had never made it to eliminations. Once we started CADding and looking for sponsors this year, everything changed. We build by far the best robot we have ever built, finally made it to eliminations, and even were regional finalists at the LA regional. Furthermore we were the 5th seed alliance captains at the Fall Classic offseason competition recently. All of this success is directly correlated to the fact that we started to CAD our robots and look for machining sponsors.

[msimon785]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

I agree completely with what RC said. We too had never CADded a robot or had machining sponsors before this year. Before this year, we had never made it to eliminations. Once we started CADding and looking for sponsors this year, everything changed. We build by far the best robot we have ever built, finally made it to eliminations, and even were regional finalists at the LA regional. Furthermore we were the 5th seed alliance captains at the Fall Classic offseason competition recently. All of this success is directly correlated to the fact that we started to CAD our robots and look for machining sponsors.

Michael, having CADed the 1836 robot in '10 and helping Ryan in '09, I can say that 1836 has CADed in every year except for 2011.

RC worded everything perfectly. CADing a robot does not detract from the mechanical team members and their roles within the team.

The the value of the ability to plan and design a robot visually cannot be overstated. I like to think of it this way:

"Imagine the ability to build a product, run tests on it, and scrap it up. Only to do it again, and again, and again, until you are perfectly content with the result. All before cutting your first piece of metal"

Team 1515 CADs approximately 98% of the robot. While we go above and beyond by implementing electrical and pneumatic paths, this is not necessary. You should be designing at least 90% of the robot in a 3D modeling software such as Autodesk Inventor or SolidWorks. Both of these are freely and readily available to you.

If you need any help through the learning curve (which I admit is significant), there is an army of CD users eager to help you.

Good luck!