Beginner CNC Mill Comparison

[Akash Rastogi]

I wanted to get a feel for who here on CD has used any of the following mills:

1) http://www.tormach.com/store/index.p...w&ref=PCNC1100

2) http://www.cncmasters.com/index.php?...ical-knee-mill

3) http://www.smithy.com/cnc/1240-mill/pricing#tab-2

4) http://www.microkinetics.com/express/

These are four we have narrowed down which are within our price range. We looked into used machines as well but I believe the school cannot allow us to do this.

Anyway, I was looking for feedback on any of these. I have been at CNCzone all day so I know that Tormach is favored by far among the three here. The CNC Masters machine only has an automated quill, so this only gives me limited travel, however the length of the bed is tempting.

Are Tormachs manufactured in the US? Does the quality of the machine live up to the hype? How easy is it to learn? Is setting up longer parts in multiple operations easy (drivetrain plates/tubes)?

I haven't seen much about the Smithy.

The MK seems ok but I haven't heard much else about them on CNCZone.

Advice and feedback is much appreciated for someone new to CNC machines.

[Mk.32]

I have used a a 1100 series Tormach quite extensively over the summer to do our new bot, literally every piece was done on the Tormach. The machine ran fine without issues for the most part, some of the TTS stuff is a bit iffy but overall it is a nice machine. Also having the ATC/Power Draw bar option gives it a nice upgrade path.

The Tormach is designed in the USA but is made in China to keep costs down. The Mach 3 control software is really easy to learn/use [imo] and doing rails and stuff on the machine was not an issue. The most limiting factor is probably the bed size, compared to say a Bridgeport that can do an entire rail in one go.

I am sure RC/Cory could chip in more info.

Edit: Just remembered these guys, heard good things about them. http://www.ihcnc.com/pages/cnc-mill.php

[Akash Rastogi]

Here's another thread from 07 discussing these same brands...
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=57937

[sanddrag]

I know one team that has a Tormach. They had a serious flaw in the casting and grinding of their first one, but the replacement they've told me has been good and they've used it quite extensively.

If you're able to afford it, look into HAAS. There's no comparison. The Tormach is fine, but the HAAS is just so much more of a machine. If there is any possible way you can save up or get other funding to afford something like a HAAS, that's the route I would go.

None of those machines you linked look bad. The MikroKinetics one has a slower spindle speed though, that will be a limiting factor in how fast you cut (along with the lesser rigidity of the machine). I'd opt for one that will let you do flood coolant. If you do go with the Tormach, can you afford the Automatic Tool Changer for it, or at least the power drawbar?

[scottandme]

We just got a Tormach 1100 this summer - I haven't had a ton of time to run parts on it, but it's pretty capable for the work we're throwing at it. Holds around 0.001-0.0005 in circular interpolation with not much effort - so press-fit bearings are easy. That's about as precise as we need it to be. It's certainly not near the class of a Haas, but it's not in that price range either. For milling mainly aluminum and plastics (polycarb/delrin/hdpe/uhmw), it's well suited. It's not going to be driving a 4" face mill, but at reasonable speeds/MRR's, I've been happy with it.

Anything bigger than the machine travels we can farm out to sponsor CNC/waterjet, but it will let us do the majority of our smaller work in house, and it lets our PLTW classes have a better machine to work with.

You're welcome to come by and check the machine out anytime, just shoot me a PM.

[Andy A.]

I've been using a pcnc 1100 daily at work for about 8 months now. I use it primarily in combination with a 4th axis table. Because of volume constraints caused by the 4th axis, I don't have the ATC, but am budgeting for the power drawbar.

I've been very pleased. The machine and TTS stuff have been trouble free, although I've found the packaged CAM software, Sprutcam, to be pretty poor. It generates tool paths alright, but it's been buggy and difficult to learn. There are just better options. The new version may be a step up, but it'd be hard to believe. To Tormachs credit, they've published a lot of helpful tutorials for sprutcam, which is interesting since it isn't really a Tormach product.

If you do go with the Tormach, spend the extra money on the nice machine stand with a coolant tank and chip guards. It's completely worth it. I'd also rank one of the 'machine arms', that will hold onto a monitor and keyboard tray to be a must have. The TTS stuff is expensive but works as advertised and worthwhile.

[DampRobot]

Let me just add on that even ten $100,000 mills with five axis and automatic tool changers are useless without a couple of extra critical pieces. First, you have to have a few students who can actually run the thing. If you only trust one mentor to run it, they will end up spending all their time watching the mill run. This is often a poor use of their time. Make sure that you trust a few students to do the watching, and let the mentor worry about potentially more important things. Also, students who are trained on the machine and know it's capabilities make much better mechanical designers.

Second, get good CAM software. I find that the CAD to G-Code step often takes much longer than the G-Code to cut metal phase. We have BobCAD v24, and I really wouldn't recommend it. It's ostensibly a 3d package, but is terribly unintuitive to use. I've had to learn how to use it about four times, because it's so hard to remember how to use it. I've heard good reviews of MasterCAM and Mach 3, but never had a chance to use them. No matter what CAM software you choose, have multiple students be able to crank out G-Code.

In terms of actual machines, we have a small HAAS with an ATC, and it really is as awesome as everyone says. However, it was about $40,000, so it is a sizable chunk of change over what you are looking for. It holds tolerances to about .0001", and has fast spindle and cutting speeds. The user interface is pretty nice too.

[kellymc]

For another entry level machine choice, take a look at the Taig mill. You can start off with this and eventually upgrade to a larger machine and keep the Taig to build additional parts. These machines are impressive for the price, the table travel is comparable to the Tormach, the spindle speed is 2X.

Run it with Mach3 and use Cut 2D for cam.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

In terms of actual machines, we have a small HAAS with an ATC, and it really is as awesome as everyone says. However, it was about $40,000, so it is a sizable chunk of change over what you are looking for. It holds tolerances to about .0001", and has fast spindle and cutting speeds. The user interface is pretty nice too.

I can believe +-.001. But +-.0001? How on earth are you measuring that and your holding that easily?

1323 (kinda) owns a Tormach and we've spent a ton of money on it. Got it for 25k with everything and then we've probably invested 5-6k on it (All school money, machine was paid for by the Shop Classes). And this is without the ATC which came out after we bought it. Out of all the machines listed on the initial post, its the best to get (besides the HAAS, which is better), but we have mixed feelings about it (more negative that positive). I wish the school would have gotten a smaller HAAS or something different. If your spending ~10-20k of non-team money, go for it. But if your spending team money or 25k plus, don't buy any of those machines. Go with something better or go with a manual with a power draw bar/dro. If you have someone that understands CNC machines, take a look at used machines. You can get some solid deals there.

I'd recommend getting MasterCAM for Solidworks or MasterCAM standalone (harder for kids). We recently tried MasterCAM for Solidworks X6 after disliking the x4 version, its pretty solid. Very inuitive and seriously a whole lot easier to teach kids on. Also allows you to update toolpaths as you rebuild your models/change dimensions.

-RC

[Cory]

Originally Posted by R.C.

I can believe +-.001. But +-.0001? How on earth are you measuring that and your holding that easily.

-RC

A Haas has encoders that only resolve to .0001. It's inconceivable that one could actually hold a .0001 tolerance in practice. Too many factors out of your control-humidity, temperature, residual stress in the part, cutting forces, chip evacuation, expansion rate of the machine throughout the day, etc. I highly doubt any FRC team would even have metrology tools (or environment) capable of measuring .0001. Technically to be highly confident in your measurement you would need a tool capable of measuring to .00001. The average micrometer can measure to .0001.

I would consider our Haas to be of slightly lesser quality than others that I have used/heard of and we can usually get within .0003" (as measured on the machine with it's probe...so not at all a proper means of measurement). In reality I would guess .0005 is the tightest tolerance we can hold without babysitting the machine and changing offsets.

[Akash Rastogi]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. While I was researching, I was already highly biased towards the Tormach machines, so your accounts are no surprise at all.

Cory - are there Haas machines available in the 20-25K range? Any other comparable machines within this range?

I'll get back to you about if it would be team money or school money, but at the moment I'm sure it is school money paying for the machine and we are limited to around 12-13K

Along with the 1100, I was thinking the 4th axis would be the best addition. Anything else you guys would suggest? Possibly a power drawbar as well.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by R.C.

1323 (kinda) owns a Tormach and we've spent a ton of money on it. Got it for 25k with everything and then we've probably invested 5-6k on it (All school money, machine was paid for by the Shop Classes). And this is without the ATC which came out after we bought it.

If you're getting into the $20k range, it's really worth it to hold out and go the extra mile for the HAAS. A lot of schools like to hear that you're interested in installing industry standard equipment so students develop skills directly transferable to the workplace. This may help up the budget. Also, the school should know that a HAAS machine is a 10+ year purchase. It isn't like it's going to be obsolete or irrelevant in 5 years. And it's going to last. Comparing the cost to something like outfitting a lab with new computers, it's clear which dollars last for a longer time.

A HAAS Mini Mill can be had for just under $30k if you're a school. You can get into a HAAS Toolroom mill (which gives you great travels and workspace) for probably just over $25k, but it has no tool changer (unless you get the more expensive "P" model). I would have a hard time recommending a machine without a tool changer if one is available. It's just too important of an option to pass up if it is available.

For CAM software, you may be interested in HSM Express for Solidworks. It looks very good and is free. One interesting note is that HSMWorks is getting bought out by Autodesk oddly enough. I envision good things to come from this in the next 3 years.

For now, we're enjoying OneCNC XR5 so far. There are many free training videos available and we've only had minor hiccups in the learning curve. Although it's less popular than MasterCAM, it seems every bit as powerful and just as easy to use. It has great simulation graphics. The OneCNC West reseller has been fantastic and the educational pricing can't be beat. Also, once you own it, you own it. No annual fee. Finally, In some sense I like the fact that it's a standalone program.

I'm curious if any teams with CNC mills have used them to run jobs for customers to generate income for the team.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. While I was researching, I was already highly biased towards the Tormach machines, so your accounts are no surprise at all.

Cory - are there Haas machines available in the 20-25K range? Any other comparable machines within this range?

I'll get back to you about if it would be team money or school money, but at the moment I'm sure it is school money paying for the machine and we are limited to around 12-13K

Along with the 1100, I was thinking the 4th axis would be the best addition. Anything else you guys would suggest? Possibly a power drawbar as well.

We've found the 4th axis we have to be a waste of money. Anything that we'd use it for we farm out to sponsors. We could have upgraded to a machine with 10" more travel, for the cost of the 4th, which would have made life about 10x easier. YMMV.

I'd rather have the TM-1 with no toolchanger for 26k than a Tormach with toolchanger.

There's a lot out there on the used market, but Haas is the only commodity machine I know of that you can get new for that price.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

If you're getting into the $20k range, it's really worth it to hold out and go the extra mile for the HAAS. A lot of schools like to hear that you're interested in installing industry standard equipment so students develop skills directly transferable to the workplace. This may help up the budget. Also, the school should know that a HAAS machine is a 10+ year purchase. It isn't like it's going to be obsolete or irrelevant in 5 years. And it's going to last. Comparing the cost to something like outfitting a lab with new computers, it's clear which dollars last for a longer time.

A HAAS Mini Mill can be had for just under $30k if you're a school. You can get into a HAAS Toolroom mill (which gives you great travels and workspace) for probably just over $25k, but it has no tool changer (unless you get the more expensive "P" model). I would have a hard time recommending a machine without a tool changer if one is available. It's just too important of an option to pass up if it is available.

Haha, I was JUST looking at the Toolroom mill when you posted.

I'll be sure to pass this onto the team admin. Hopefully saving up for 30K+ is a possibility. I'm sure that for them a larger 1 time investment is better than continuously putting money into a Tormach or any other lower end machine.

Thanks for all the info guys!

[AlecS]

Big time second the suggestions to make the jump to a HAAS. I've used multiple Tormachs, as well as HAAS's, Mazak's, smaller custom built mills. IMO, the Tormach is not worth the 25K often paid for it. It has a lot of issue's that limit productivity.

The Tormach Tooling System, although it makes tool changes much easier than standard R8 holders/collets, has serious pullout issues. If you use the pneumatic drawbar/ATC your likely going have holder pullout issues on any EM over .250, at reasonable material removal rates. If you use the wrench to tighten the collet, you'll get a little more grip, but it is still an issue.

Another issue is lost step count. Since it is a stepper not servo machine, with no feedback, the controller can lose step counts without the controller knowing. This is a real bummer when the part you spent an hour milling ends up being out of tolerance. Although I haven't had a chance to use a Gen 3 Tormach, unless they significantly up'ed the size of the steppers, or added feedback, it's likely this is still an issue.

Surface finish will also leave a lot to be desired.

Lastly, the spindle motor is somewhat underpowered the machine size. You will often find yourself slowing down due the the spindle struggling.

Although I haven't had a chance to use any of the other machines on list, (CNCMasters, Microkenetics, Smithy), I have used other Smithy machines. They also leave a lot to be desired. Lots.

One other company you may consider if you don't want to make the jump the full Haas VMC, is SYIL. They aren't very well known, and their knowledge of the machines is very limited. I've been to their distribution center, and they pretty much just open the boxes from China and sell it. However, the machines are actually very nice and well priced. You can get most of there machine with linear slides, over the traditional box or dovetail ways. This will keep you maintenance and adjustment time down. The machines cut very well, and although they are still steppers, I haven't had one have an issue with lost steps, and the surface finish is far superior to the Tormachs. To give you an idea of the price, I recently helped a team get an X5 Linear 220v, delivered with lift gate, stand and coolant pump for a smidge over $8000. This machine beats the Tormach at cutting IMO, although its travels are smaller. That being said, if you have to fix something, add features, etc, be prepared to do it yourself. Converting the machine from mach 3 to linux cnc was not trivial due to wiring schematic discrepancies.

TL;DR Be wary of the Tormach's, though they have great service, the price, quality of machine and cuts, leave much to be desired. Really consider making the jump to HAAS VMC, the productivity and quality will be impressive, and you won't find yourself dreaming of a nicer machine. If price is a big issue though, consider a SYIL.

P.S. Beware of the pricing on HAAS machines. The options will add up quick.