Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)

[JohnSchneider]

If one team prefers to concentrate more on the robot, and one on the outreach...I would think you would actually go better together. Mutual benefit.

The students on the one who prefer competing - compete
The students on the one who prefer outreach - outreach

Having strong programs in both would let students gain the most by participating in what they feel more strongly about. And there may be students on one team who prefer the aspect of the other - but haven't gotten to experience it.

[efoote868]

Sounds like this is one instance where you might to get the local media involved. A school district trying to prevent STEM? Ridiculous!

[Tristan Lall]

Firstly, let's distinguish new LiveWire from old LiveWire: as I understand it, the former is a new privately-operated team, and the latter is an old, defunct school-operated team. Organizationally, people moved from old to new, but there's no common corporate lineage. Is that correct?

Also, let's get this out of the way: you make reference to differences of opinion between old LiveWire and HayWire. Are those cordial differences of opinion, or are you actually mutually resentful of the other team's methods? It's relevant for many reasons, not the least of which being that perhaps the school district was trying to kill some sort of rivalry that it didn't like.

Was the team's equipment actually school district property? (For example, paid for with school funds, or donated to the school explicitly, perhaps in writing.) Or was it not clearly theirs to take away? (For example, bought by mentors or parents out of their own personal funds, and given to the school on the condition,¹ perhaps in writing, that it be used for 3456.) If and only if it's not the school's property free and clear, there may be a nuclear option available: you could sue them for conversion, or rather, provide a strongly-worded letter suggesting you might do just that.² If you can honestly say that it appears to be an instance of official corruption, or deliberate malfeasance, talk with the other mentors about making some discreet inquiries in this direction. But if the school really does own the property, that effort will fail.

There are also plenty of political remedies available, but they may come with political consequences for the teachers who are trying to maintain their day jobs. Assuming the school board holds public meetings with an opportunity for open comment, I'm sure they'll enjoy having to withstand direct criticism at their next meeting. And doubly so during the next election cycle. If, in the big picture, it makes more sense to break the board's resolve, then this might be worth discussing. I'm not always a fan of political theatrics, but they have their place.

But beware: it's not unlikely that accepting the school district's decision ends up being the most beneficial solution once their expected perpetual intransigence is taken into account. Maybe you're in the best position already—moving on.

¹ An "onerous gift" is one that comes with strings explicitly attached. If you accept the gift, you accept the conditions.
² There's actually another option—the blow up the Sun option: you could file criminal charges. Don't do this. Given the description you've supplied, it's kind of cruel, not remotely worth it, and you'll almost certainly fail.

[Justin Montois]

Your website mentions that you moved into a build space at a mall. Was that space donated or supplied by the school in anyway? Is the tooling in that space the property of the school district?

Also why did you have to give up your team number?

I have empathy for your situation, it just seems really bizarre, the circumstances. I'm sure you are just as confused as we are.

[Red2486]

Hey Dirk-
We are going to see what we can do. I'll talk to our coaches to see what kind of extra parts we have and send them your way. I seriously can't believe that your school district would cut you guys, especially after such an awesome season last year. If you have any other specifics on the things you guys need, let us know. I'm really sorry and I realy hope we can help. Keep up the goOd work.
-Kinney, FRC Team 2486, the CocoNuts

[ebarker]

Just a thought to tuck away in your mind as you thing through this, actually two thoughts.

1) material assets such as tools, robots, etc are relatively minor things to lose. reaquiring those things is just a task to do ( not trying to overly minimize that )

2) Losing buy in from the school system is the huge loss here. That is a big problem from a societal / educational viewpoint. We may as well get rid of indoor plumbing and electricity. Especially when the team is self funded.

[Alex.q]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

Was the team's equipment actually school district property? (For example, paid for with school funds, or donated to the school explicitly, perhaps in writing.) Or was it not clearly theirs to take away? (For example, bought by mentors or parents out of their own personal funds, and given to the school on the condition,¹ perhaps in writing, that it be used for 3456.) If and only if it's not the school's property free and clear, there may be a nuclear option available: you could sue them for conversion, or rather, provide a strongly-worded letter suggesting you might do just that.² If you can honestly say that it appears to be an instance of official corruption, or deliberate malfeasance, talk with the other mentors about making some discreet inquiries in this direction. But if the school really does own the property, that effort will fail.

I do not really understand all the legal system involved here, but I believe I have seen others on CD comment on this similarly. If a corporation gives money to a team to be used for a specific purpose, or if you had money from a specific grant, that money MUST be used for the same purpose as it was given. You said the money your team had leftover was reallocated to other teams: if that money came from your sponsors, you could ask them to get involved to ask for the money to be either returned or given to your team.

*I could be completely wrong here. If I am, please correct me.

[ebarker]

Yes, money was given to a school for team use and the money was probably used for team purposes.

However, it is general practice in most school districts that the school owns the property.

Who owns the property is a different issue than what the money was used for.

[MrTechCenter]

I don't know if I can help or offer an idea here. But my recommendation is, if you do succeed in reestablishing a team, register yourselves as a nonprofit organization. That way, you are no longer tied to the school and they cannot legally take anything away from you. As someone mentioned earlier, make the rest of your community aware of this situation. Draw attention from a local news station and parents. You may even go so far to protest the district's actions publicly.

[MrBasse]

We still haven't gotten clarification of where the equipment and supplies came from. After a two minute Google search I found the biggest problem you have. By becoming a group with the school you entered a contract with the school as a School Activity Fund group. Per this document you have absolutely no recourse here whatsoever.

Specifically - "5. Materials and equipment purchased by student activity funds become District property. "

I'm sorry to say this, but the district is following their guidelines to a T. Taking everything away and shutting down an educational group is a terrible way for a school to work, but maybe someone on the board of trustees didn't like something you were doing as a group. If that is the kind of environment you were in, I would consider you lucky to be forced out of it. Sounds like it was a toxic relationship from the way communication was/is handled and general treatment was/is addressed.

It sounds like you were extremely successful in that environment, there is no telling what you are capable of once you are free of that mess.

Our offer still stands if you need a hand, distance or not we'd hate to see another young team suffer at someone else's doing. Just let me know what you might need and we can see if we can work out a care package.

[MrTechCenter]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

We still haven't gotten clarification of where the equipment and supplies came from. After a two minute Google search I found the biggest problem you have. By becoming a group with the school you entered a contract with the school as a School Activity Fund group. Per this document you have absolutely no recourse here whatsoever.

Specifically - "5. Materials and equipment purchased by student activity funds become District property. "

I'm sorry to say this, but the district is following their guidelines to a T. Taking everything away and shutting down an educational group is a terrible way for a school to work, but maybe someone on the board of trustees didn't like something you were doing as a group. If that is the kind of environment you were in, I would consider you lucky to be forced out of it. Sounds like it was a toxic relationship from the way communication was/is handled and general treatment was/is addressed.

It sounds like you were extremely successful in that environment, there is no telling what you are capable of once you are free of that mess.

Our offer still stands if you need a hand, distance or not we'd hate to see another young team suffer at someone else's doing. Just let me know what you might need and we can see if we can work out a care package.

They may have had the legal right to do so, but were their actions justified? If they gave a response to the constant pleas from team members and parents, maybe their was reason for their actions, but from the information gathered here it seems that it was done completely without cause.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by MrTechCenter

They may have had the legal right to do so,

But did they have the moral right ?

I wish we knew the back story as the press calls it.

[MrTechCenter]

Originally Posted by ebarker

But did they have the moral right ?

I wish we knew the back story as the press calls it.

Not to be rude, but that's what I said in the rest of my comment.

[Nomadic Mentor]

If you post or PM a list of specific items I'll talk to my team (3483 ) and see if we can get some loaners to you.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by MrTechCenter

They may have had the legal right to do so, but were their actions justified? If they gave a response to the constant pleas from team members and parents, maybe their was reason for their actions, but from the information gathered here it seems that it was done completely without cause.

I'm not saying I agree with what happened, I'm just pointing out the unfortunate truth of the situation. School is just like real life, it always pays to read the fine print...

Also, we still don't have any information as to what the cause could be. It's hard to believe but there could be the best possible reason for the board's actions. It could also be a trivial thing that was viewed as a possible cost savings. School boards are elected officials and elected officials don't always make the right choice, just the choice that they feel is right at the time.

I'm still offering support as I feel the actions of the board are unfair and ridiculous. But I like to offer up the facts of the matter so people will stop saying that these students and parents should sue or publicly protest. Both of those actions could lead to more trouble for the team.

Think about it this way, would you want to be associated and hosted by a school that you just filed a lawsuit on?