Go to Post I just like that PVC is the most basic need of humankind according to that diagram. Whatever would we do without it?! - Po-ser [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Other > FIRST Tech Challenge
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-10-2012, 08:40
chi-town-biker chi-town-biker is offline
Registered User
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 46
chi-town-biker is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Just to be clear. The probability of a weighted ring is 6/24 or .25. The probability of a weighted ring, given you have already found a weighted ring, is 5/23 or .2174. The probability of a pair of weighted rings is .25*.2174 or .0544.

That is, at the start of the game, there is a 5.44% chance that the first two rings are both weighted.
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-10-2012, 09:22
chi-town-biker chi-town-biker is offline
Registered User
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 46
chi-town-biker is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

To me the key to the game is cycle time—how quickly the robot can grab two rings, drive to the rack, hang the rings and return to the dispenser. Assuming both robots hang their rings during autonomous and a lift takes 30 seconds, that leaves 90 seconds to fill the remaining seven pegs on the rack. That’s four cycles, or round-trips, for the two robots. Finding weighted rings and hanging them adds cycles.

Your strategy then depends on how reliable your autonomous is, your cycle time, how quickly you can identify a weighted ring and your assumptions about your partner’s autonomous and cycle time. Remember, to avoid wasting time and the bottleneck at the dispenser, one of the robots will need to use the far dispenser.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-10-2012, 23:31
RRLedford RRLedford is offline
FTC 3507 Robo Theosis -- FRC 3135
AKA: Dick Ledford
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 286
RRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by chi-town-biker View Post
To me the key to the game is cycle time—how quickly the robot can grab two rings, drive to the rack, hang the rings and return to the dispenser. Assuming both robots hang their rings during autonomous and a lift takes 30 seconds, that leaves 90 seconds to fill the remaining seven pegs on the rack. That’s four cycles, or round-trips, for the two robots. Finding weighted rings and hanging them adds cycles.

Your strategy then depends on how reliable your autonomous is, your cycle time, how quickly you can identify a weighted ring and your assumptions about your partner’s autonomous and cycle time. Remember, to avoid wasting time and the bottleneck at the dispenser, one of the robots will need to use the far dispenser.
--NOTE THIS ANALYSIS ASSUMES NO AUTONOMOUS SCORED --
Now you are describing the reality of the game that I was talking about.
We plan to place two rings on each of the 2nd level scoring pegs initially.
The fourth cycle we will use this next ring pair to place one of them each on the upper and lower of one side or the other side.

This approach means that starting after the second cycle, every trip can earn at least 30 point row bonus plus 20 more for the level scoring. The fourth cycle can also earn a 30 point row bonus with 20 ring scoring, and if a 5th cycle can be done, 20 for level scoring and 90 points of row bonus -- 110 in one cycle!!

So we see it as critical to get at least four scoring cycles completed. Only a trip to the corner with at least 125 points already scored and two heavy rings can give a 50 or more points of heavy ring bonus, but if it jeopardizes us from completing the forth scoring cycle, and prevents us from even being able to attempt a 5th cycle, then it is barely worth the 50 points loss that the fourth scoring cycle would have generated, and it totally kills the possibility that getting a 5th cycle at 110 points can even be attempted. So we see going for the heavy ring scoring as a sucker deal.

In the early portion of the match, we also don't want to waste time shuffling heavy rings between pipes to try and arrange to get a pair of heavies adjacent either. It is just too critical to complete the initial scoring cycles done to have access to the possibility or reaching the stage where every additional cycle can give 5o to 90 points of row bonus.

-Dick Ledford

Last edited by RRLedford : 15-10-2012 at 16:20.
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-10-2012, 16:09
RRLedford RRLedford is offline
FTC 3507 Robo Theosis -- FRC 3135
AKA: Dick Ledford
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 286
RRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Further update:

After review (again assuming NO ANONOMOUS SCORING), it turns out that with proper planning, after the 2nd scoring cycle takes you to 50 points, the next two cycles (3rd, 4th) can each yield 110 points (20 rings and 90 row bonus) per cycle, and the fifth can yield 80 more pts.

Unless you have pair of heavy rings for the corner goal, to have that trip yield more than the 80 points that a 5th trip to the rack can give, requires 205 points already scored, and after three cycles 155 is the most possible.
So, there is no attraction for the corner until the 4th scoring cycle gives 265, and with another 80 still available from a 5th cycle to reach 345 -- you are not going to the corner unless you KNOW you have TWO heavies to hang for the 40% bonus applied to the 265 points reached on the 4th cycle. Without two heavies, a 5th trip to the rack is the best option.

- 1st -- 2nd -- 3rd -- 4th --- 5th
0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2
0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 1 4
0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 5 2

25pts -45pts -155pts 265pts 345pts

So with this in mind, how can you even consider heading for the corner with only one heavy ring, and how can you bother to waste time sorting heavy rings when the 3rd, 4th and 5th scoring cycles can offer a combined 300 points?!!

Only with two partners that are both fast scorers, and with one of them able to detect/sort heavies, does a trip to the corner with heavy/heavies seem likely to make any sense.

-Dick Ledford

Last edited by RRLedford : 15-10-2012 at 16:21.
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-11-2012, 03:09
RRLedford RRLedford is offline
FTC 3507 Robo Theosis -- FRC 3135
AKA: Dick Ledford
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 286
RRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Correction:

- 1st -- 2nd -- 3rd -- 4th --- 5th
0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2
0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 1 4
0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 5 2

25pts -45pts -185pts 295pts 345pts
____+20__+140__+110___+50___
__________________
FTC 3507 RoboTheosis
FRC 3135 Robotic Colonels
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-11-2012, 07:33
wilsonmw04's Avatar
wilsonmw04 wilsonmw04 is offline
Coach
FRC #1086 (Blue Cheese)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Midlothian, VA
Posts: 1,887
wilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

@JesseK

Can you come talk to my team? I've been trying to tell them something along those lines for week. It's like you've been living in my brain for a while. Well said.
__________________
Currently: Coach FRC 1086/FTC 93
2006-2011 Coach FRC 2106/FTC 35
If you come to a FRC event to see a robot competition, you are missing the point.
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-11-2012, 01:39
RRLedford RRLedford is offline
FTC 3507 Robo Theosis -- FRC 3135
AKA: Dick Ledford
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 286
RRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

This "correction" was wrong!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRLedford View Post
Correction:

- 1st -- 2nd - - 3rd --- 4th - - 5th
0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2
0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 1 4
0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 5 2

25pts -45pts -185pts 295pts 345pts
+25___+20___+140__+110___+50___
The original post was the real deal:

- 1st -- 2nd --- 3rd --- 4th --- 5th .... Scoring Trip
0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2 .. Upper Row
0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 .1 .4 .. Middle Row
0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 .5 .2 .. Lower Row

25pts -45pts -155pts 265pts 345pts .. Running Total
+25___+20 __+110__+110 __+80_ .. Trip Increment
__________________
FTC 3507 RoboTheosis
FRC 3135 Robotic Colonels

Last edited by RRLedford : 29-11-2012 at 02:05.
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-11-2012, 23:33
Nemo's Avatar
Nemo Nemo is offline
Team 967 Mentor
AKA: Dan Niemitalo
FRC #0967 (Iron Lions)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 804
Nemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Here's something I'd love to see happen this year:

Two alliances are involved in a high scoring, close match in which both sides have their rack filled with rings for 8 line bonuses. In the last 5-10 seconds of the match, a team that is holding a ring in their robot, with no ability to detect weighted rings, realizes that the only way they can score enough points to pull ahead is to score a weighted ring (involving some awesome quick head math). Knowing that, they blindly hang their ring on the corner and hope for the best, and by luck it happens to actually be a weighted ring.
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-11-2012, 12:31
Wayne TenBrink's Avatar
Wayne TenBrink Wayne TenBrink is offline
<< (2008 Game Piece)
FRC #1918 (NC Gears)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Fremont, MI, USA
Posts: 528
Wayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

How many hang cycles (per robot, single or double) are feasible in a match? I haven't seen any video yet of anybody putting up more than 4 rings in a match.

Regarging the original subject, we can identify the difference between heavy and light rings, but we ignore it for all the reasons described here. I think they missed the mark on how they score them. Perhaps if you got 25 points for each heavy ring on the corner peg and a 30 point penalty for every light ring you put there, some teams would try it.
__________________
NC Gears (Newaygo County Geeks Engineering Awesome Robotic Solutions)

FRC 1918 (Competing at St. Joseph and West MI in 2017)
FTC 6043 & 7911
Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-11-2012, 13:17
Nemo's Avatar
Nemo Nemo is offline
Team 967 Mentor
AKA: Dan Niemitalo
FRC #0967 (Iron Lions)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 804
Nemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink View Post
How many hang cycles (per robot, single or double) are feasible in a match? I haven't seen any video yet of anybody putting up more than 4 rings in a match.

Regarging the original subject, we can identify the difference between heavy and light rings, but we ignore it for all the reasons described here. I think they missed the mark on how they score them. Perhaps if you got 25 points for each heavy ring on the corner peg and a 30 point penalty for every light ring you put there, some teams would try it.
I agree. Our team had at least one match with 6 rings hung at our qualifier, probably in a match with no defense played against us. We've gotten four cycles in a practice match with zero defense, but usually we only get 2 or 3 cycles. In a match with two robots that are both scoring rings (and opponents who are scoring their rings rather than defending you), I think it would be possible to fill the rack and reach the type of scoring situation where weighted rings would win you the match. I would guess that the Championship will feature a match like that, but even there I think defense will prevent that from being common. If we manage to qualify for champs, we will at least think about adding the detecting capability. It might not be that hard to add to an existing robot that can already score rings.
Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-12-2012, 00:15
RRLedford RRLedford is offline
FTC 3507 Robo Theosis -- FRC 3135
AKA: Dick Ledford
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 286
RRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRLedford View Post
Correction:

- 1st -- 2nd -- 3rd -- 4th --- 5th
0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2
0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 1 4
0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 5 2

25pts -45pts -185pts 295pts 345pts
____+20__+140__+110___+50___
For better strategy, the 5th scoring cycle should put one ring on center peg, since it is critical to protect its possession status. Well worth the lost 5 pts. given up.
__________________
FTC 3507 RoboTheosis
FRC 3135 Robotic Colonels
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2012, 16:58
sprocketman92's Avatar
sprocketman92 sprocketman92 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brent Butler
FRC #3947 (The Last Crusaders)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: knightstown
Posts: 51
sprocketman92 is on a distinguished road
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Our team is wanting to use a pulley we found in the shop to tell weighted from unweighted,but I don't think that preformed pulleys are legal are they?
__________________
Don't tell me it won't work....... MAKE IT WORK!
Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2012, 12:38
RRLedford RRLedford is offline
FTC 3507 Robo Theosis -- FRC 3135
AKA: Dick Ledford
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 286
RRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond reputeRRLedford has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprocketman92 View Post
Our team is wanting to use a pulley we found in the shop to tell weighted from unweighted,but I don't think that preformed pulleys are legal are they?
No, any preformed COTS items are illegal, unless they are specifically listed as allowed, and pulleys are not on that list.

I am not dure how you were planning to use it, but a lever bar use like a teeter totter might substitite.

-Dick Ledford
__________________
FTC 3507 RoboTheosis
FRC 3135 Robotic Colonels
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:59.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi