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#16
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Just to be clear. The probability of a weighted ring is 6/24 or .25. The probability of a weighted ring, given you have already found a weighted ring, is 5/23 or .2174. The probability of a pair of weighted rings is .25*.2174 or .0544.
That is, at the start of the game, there is a 5.44% chance that the first two rings are both weighted. |
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#17
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
To me the key to the game is cycle time—how quickly the robot can grab two rings, drive to the rack, hang the rings and return to the dispenser. Assuming both robots hang their rings during autonomous and a lift takes 30 seconds, that leaves 90 seconds to fill the remaining seven pegs on the rack. That’s four cycles, or round-trips, for the two robots. Finding weighted rings and hanging them adds cycles.
Your strategy then depends on how reliable your autonomous is, your cycle time, how quickly you can identify a weighted ring and your assumptions about your partner’s autonomous and cycle time. Remember, to avoid wasting time and the bottleneck at the dispenser, one of the robots will need to use the far dispenser. |
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#18
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Quote:
Now you are describing the reality of the game that I was talking about. We plan to place two rings on each of the 2nd level scoring pegs initially. The fourth cycle we will use this next ring pair to place one of them each on the upper and lower of one side or the other side. This approach means that starting after the second cycle, every trip can earn at least 30 point row bonus plus 20 more for the level scoring. The fourth cycle can also earn a 30 point row bonus with 20 ring scoring, and if a 5th cycle can be done, 20 for level scoring and 90 points of row bonus -- 110 in one cycle!! So we see it as critical to get at least four scoring cycles completed. Only a trip to the corner with at least 125 points already scored and two heavy rings can give a 50 or more points of heavy ring bonus, but if it jeopardizes us from completing the forth scoring cycle, and prevents us from even being able to attempt a 5th cycle, then it is barely worth the 50 points loss that the fourth scoring cycle would have generated, and it totally kills the possibility that getting a 5th cycle at 110 points can even be attempted. So we see going for the heavy ring scoring as a sucker deal. In the early portion of the match, we also don't want to waste time shuffling heavy rings between pipes to try and arrange to get a pair of heavies adjacent either. It is just too critical to complete the initial scoring cycles done to have access to the possibility or reaching the stage where every additional cycle can give 5o to 90 points of row bonus. -Dick Ledford Last edited by RRLedford : 15-10-2012 at 16:20. |
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#19
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Further update:
After review (again assuming NO ANONOMOUS SCORING), it turns out that with proper planning, after the 2nd scoring cycle takes you to 50 points, the next two cycles (3rd, 4th) can each yield 110 points (20 rings and 90 row bonus) per cycle, and the fifth can yield 80 more pts. Unless you have pair of heavy rings for the corner goal, to have that trip yield more than the 80 points that a 5th trip to the rack can give, requires 205 points already scored, and after three cycles 155 is the most possible. So, there is no attraction for the corner until the 4th scoring cycle gives 265, and with another 80 still available from a 5th cycle to reach 345 -- you are not going to the corner unless you KNOW you have TWO heavies to hang for the 40% bonus applied to the 265 points reached on the 4th cycle. Without two heavies, a 5th trip to the rack is the best option. - 1st -- 2nd -- 3rd -- 4th --- 5th 0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2 0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 1 4 0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 5 2 25pts -45pts -155pts 265pts 345pts So with this in mind, how can you even consider heading for the corner with only one heavy ring, and how can you bother to waste time sorting heavy rings when the 3rd, 4th and 5th scoring cycles can offer a combined 300 points?!! Only with two partners that are both fast scorers, and with one of them able to detect/sort heavies, does a trip to the corner with heavy/heavies seem likely to make any sense. -Dick Ledford Last edited by RRLedford : 15-10-2012 at 16:21. |
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#20
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Correction:
- 1st -- 2nd -- 3rd -- 4th --- 5th 0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2 0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 1 4 0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 5 2 25pts -45pts -185pts 295pts 345pts ____+20__+140__+110___+50___ |
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#21
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
@JesseK
Can you come talk to my team? I've been trying to tell them something along those lines for week. It's like you've been living in my brain for a while. Well said. |
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#22
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
This "correction" was wrong!
Quote:
- 1st -- 2nd --- 3rd --- 4th --- 5th .... Scoring Trip 0 1 0__0 1 2__3 1 2__3 1 2__3 15 2 .. Upper Row 0 1 0__0 1 0__0 1 0__4 1 4__4 .1 .4 .. Middle Row 0 0 0__0 0 2__3 0 2__3 0 2__3 .5 .2 .. Lower Row 25pts -45pts -155pts 265pts 345pts .. Running Total +25___+20 __+110__+110 __+80_ .. Trip Increment Last edited by RRLedford : 29-11-2012 at 02:05. |
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#23
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Here's something I'd love to see happen this year:
Two alliances are involved in a high scoring, close match in which both sides have their rack filled with rings for 8 line bonuses. In the last 5-10 seconds of the match, a team that is holding a ring in their robot, with no ability to detect weighted rings, realizes that the only way they can score enough points to pull ahead is to score a weighted ring (involving some awesome quick head math). Knowing that, they blindly hang their ring on the corner and hope for the best, and by luck it happens to actually be a weighted ring. |
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#24
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
How many hang cycles (per robot, single or double) are feasible in a match? I haven't seen any video yet of anybody putting up more than 4 rings in a match.
Regarging the original subject, we can identify the difference between heavy and light rings, but we ignore it for all the reasons described here. I think they missed the mark on how they score them. Perhaps if you got 25 points for each heavy ring on the corner peg and a 30 point penalty for every light ring you put there, some teams would try it. |
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#25
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Quote:
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#26
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
For better strategy, the 5th scoring cycle should put one ring on center peg, since it is critical to protect its possession status. Well worth the lost 5 pts. given up.
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#27
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Our team is wanting to use a pulley we found in the shop to tell weighted from unweighted,but I don't think that preformed pulleys are legal are they?
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#28
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Re: [FTC]:Finding weighted rings vs regular rings
Quote:
I am not dure how you were planning to use it, but a lever bar use like a teeter totter might substitite. -Dick Ledford |
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