First Choice 2013

[Clinton Bolinger]

We have already received our FIRSTChoice shipment from yesterday.

AndyMark, great turn around time on shipping.

Also the Talons come with a Fan and fan mounting screws.

-Clinton-

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

Yeah, you can only get $1000 worth of AndyMark gearmotors for free with 96 credits at this point. That's a real shame.

Not the point. Value in this case = getting something we otherwise would have purchased using money. We don't know if we will use AM gear motors in our design this year, and even if we do I doubt we will use $1000 worth. That's the genius of FIRST Choice (seriously) - teams will have different value functions, so let them choose what is most valuable to them in order to distribute limited resources in a close-to-optimal way.

Unfortunately a combination of uneven credits-to-dollars ratios, a lack of quantity limits, and the presence of a few near-universal high dollar items meant that in a lot of cases the value functions were aligned. This is why there was such a run on Talons, Classmates, Axis cameras, Right angle drills - all high dollar items that teams know they will have a high chance of being able to use in 2013 regardless of design.

[Peyton Yeung]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Not the point. Value in this case = getting something we otherwise would have purchased using money. We don't know if we will use AM gear motors in our design this year, and even if we do I doubt we will use $1000 worth. That's the genius of FIRST Choice (seriously) - teams will have different value functions, so let them choose what is most valuable to them in order to distribute limited resources in a close-to-optimal way.

Unfortunately a combination of uneven credits-to-dollars ratios, a lack of quantity limits, and the presence of a few near-universal high dollar items meant that in a lot of cases the value functions were aligned. This is why there was such a run on Talons, Classmates, Axis cameras, Right angle drills - all high dollar items that teams know they will have a high chance of being able to use in 2013 regardless of design.

I feel this way too. We were hoping to get a classmate and maybe a few talons if we could but due to log in issues got in late and everything was already gone. This kinda hurts when I read the posts that people were able to log in on time and get multiple talons and classmates.

[maddoctor90]

Before FIRST Choice you would not have gotten anything more than what is still available to you right now on FIRST Choice. No motor controllers, Classmate PCs, cRIOs, Axis Cameras, drills, or a load of other things unless you were a rookie. We are still going to get a kit of parts at kickoff. With all of the items in the virtual kit and the physical kit we will get at the kickoff teams will have far more than they have ever received in the past. All that said, the system didn't work the way it was supposed to and the items on FIRST Choice were not distributed fairly. I am sure FIRST will look into making this a better experience in the future. Please look for ways of making the most out of the situation instead of complaining about it. It still is an improvement from past years no matter what you get from FIRST Choice.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger

Also the Talons come with a Fan and fan mounting screws.

-Clinton-

Do they really now? Huh. We ordered some (read: purchased) and they didn't come with fans nor mounting screws. We're not too affected by this, as we have a plethora of Victor fans lying around.

[Clinton Bolinger]

Originally Posted by CalTran

Do they really now? Huh. We ordered some (read: purchased) and they didn't come with fans nor mounting screws. We're not too affected by this, as we have a plethora of Victor fans lying around.

This could could be a new addition since the release of the VexPro product line. We also purchased some Talons (in September) and we did not receive any Fan hardware.

Maybe someone from AndyMark can expand on this or note on the Talon product page (http://www.andymark.com/Talon-p/am-2195.htm) if all Talons will come with Fan hardware.

Also it looks like AndyMark is sold out of Talons all together. I'm curious if they will be back in stock of Kickoff.

-Clinton-

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger

This could could be a new addition since the release of the VexPro product line. We also purchased some Talons (in September) and we did not receive any Fan hardware.

Maybe someone from AndyMark can expand on this or note on the Talon product page (http://www.andymark.com/Talon-p/am-2195.htm) if all Talons will come with Fan hardware.

Also it looks like AndyMark is sold out of Talons all together. I'm curious if they will be back in stock of Kickoff.

-Clinton-

I spoke with Mike a while ago and Talons purchased from Andy Mark are not supposed to come with fans (our retail order did not come with fans). However, they may have changed the package just for FIRST choice.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by maddoctor90

Before FIRST Choice you would not have gotten anything more than what is still available to you right now on FIRST Choice. No motor controllers, Classmate PCs, cRIOs, Axis Cameras, drills, or a load of other things unless you were a rookie. We are still going to get a kit of parts at kickoff. With all of the items in the virtual kit and the physical kit we will get at the kickoff teams will have far more than they have ever received in the past. All that said, the system didn't work the way it was supposed to and the items on FIRST Choice were not distributed fairly. I am sure FIRST will look into making this a better experience in the future. Please look for ways of making the most out of the situation instead of complaining about it. It still is an improvement from past years no matter what you get from FIRST Choice.

I would argue that veteran teams get substantially less "stuff" than they used to. However, I would also say that veteran teams who actually got what they wanted from FIRST Choice probably got a much better value than they used to, since (hypothetically) they were ordering things they'll use for the season, whereas in the past before they neutered the kit of parts, veteran teams got a lot of stuff that just sat on the shelf gathering dust. (How many linear slide parts and pillow blocks do we really need....).

All in all, I agree the new system will be an improvement when it works correctly and fairly for all teams. I bet we see a big improvement next year.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by maddoctor90

Before FIRST Choice you would not have gotten anything more than what is still available to you right now on FIRST Choice. No motor controllers, Classmate PCs, cRIOs, Axis Cameras, drills, or a load of other things unless you were a rookie. We are still going to get a kit of parts at kickoff. With all of the items in the virtual kit and the physical kit we will get at the kickoff teams will have far more than they have ever received in the past.

Honestly, in addition needing to spend the extra money*, one of my issues with this in terms of KOP is that it has handicapped our final robot design by hundreds of dollars. We regularly design to our limit (in terms of the $3500 cap as well as time, energy and coffee), and this doesn't seem right. Why is a team that didn't get stuck in a glitch allowed to write off, say $660 in free Talons, when a team that didn't want that many but got kicked off/couldn't log in, not only has to pay for them but also has to make their final robot $550 cheaper? Aside from simply feeling cheated out of the system we were promised and having no use for $1000 worth of gearmotors or anything else now available [what Jared said], this just doesn't make sense to me.

Personally, I believe both the FIRST Choice procedures and rule R13 [2012] could use a change (though obviously I push for the former more). Even if it was changed to focus on those truly in need or some other fundamental change, it has to be better than the system simply failing.

*I can't imagine how difficult this is on teams that simply can't afford alternatives. I'm dreading the impact it could have, but something tells me we'll be donating more parts than usual this season.

[Chris is me]

I always interpreted the KoP rule as "you're allowed to use up to the amount of the parts present in the KoP for 'free' in terms of the BOM." Since Talons were not restricted in FIRST Choice, wouldn't they be free in the BOM anyway?

[maddoctor90]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I always interpreted the KoP rule as "you're allowed to use up to the amount of the parts present in the KoP for 'free' in terms of the BOM." Since Talons were not restricted in FIRST Choice, wouldn't they be free in the BOM anyway?

No they technically wouldn't.
From the Q&A:
"Rule R13C allows exclusion from total cost of "items ever distributed to the team via FIRST Choice". May a team exclude the cost of an item listed in FIRST Choice but which was not available for distribution due to limited quantities in stock?"
Answer: No

Link: https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...able-for-distr

[sanddrag]

The BOM rules must be changed to count fair market value of everything on the robot, regardless of how you obtained it. (And perhaps raise the limit a bit, and declare fair market values for KOP items that cannot be purchased from vendors). It's the only logical way. This is a robotics competition, not a book-cooking competition.

[McGurky]

Teams adversely affected by the Inventory management problems should contact frcparts@usfirst.org.

Good afternoon,

There was an issue with FIRST Choice inventory management yesterday that allowed teams to place orders for parts that were no longer available.

If you believe you were adversely affected by this issue (i.e. you ordered an item that you thought was in stock, but later learned that the part was not in stock, and thus missed out on ordering other parts you would have ordered had you had accurate inventory data), please contact us at frcparts@usfirst.org.

Meanwhile, as stated in an earlier blog post, the credits spent on these items have been returned to your account.

We’re so sorry for this issue and for the frustration it may have caused.

Kate

[slijin]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Is there any possibility at all that the FIRST Choice inventory gets replenished? Thinking at this point we'll just save our credits and hope something valuable is available later.

I hate to bear bad news, but:

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Jerry Budd <jerry@andymark.com> wrote:

Correct. According to rules, when an item goes out of stock it remains out of stock for this year.

Jerry Budd
AndyMark Inc.
Robot Controls Engineer



On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 7:24 AM, Samuel Lijin wrote:

Hi Jerry,

Does that mean there is absolutely no possibility that FIRST Choice will be restocked in the future?

Samuel Lijin

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by slijin

I hate to bear bad news, but:

This has been a policy since we started FIRST Choice. Here is a FAQ posted on the AM website:

"What happens if a part is out of stock when I try to place my order?
When logging into the FIRST Choice Ordering section of the AndyMark webpage, the number of items still in stock at the moment the webpage loads is shown for each part. If there are no more available at this time it will show 'OUT OF STOCK'. Since many teams are placing their orders at the same time, someone else might have reserved the last part, by placing their order, while you are still checking out. In this case, the item will automatically be removed from your cart. Please be sure to place your order quickly, and double check your order after it has been placed. If this does happen you will still be able to log in again and order something else! Once a FIRST Choice item is out of stock, it will be out of stock for the remainder of the FIRST Choice ordering period."

Sincerely,
Andy Baker