2013 KB on steriods

[bardd]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Why is this so? We have had sub par results in our 10 years of doing it the way that we have. We dont have enough resources to devote time to custom things and would be better served using the provided frame. The rest of the team felt that this would be a good approach. I am reaching out to the chiefdelphi community asking for advice. Before I face palm in frustration could you please explain to me how my fundementals need to be rethought?

I believe he's referring to the fact you make design decisions before kickoff, not criticising the decision itself.

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Why is this so? We have had sub par results in our 10 years of doing it the way that we have. We dont have enough resources to devote time to custom things and would be better served using the provided frame. The rest of the team felt that this would be a good approach. I am reaching out to the chiefdelphi community asking for advice. Before I face palm in frustration could you please explain to me how my fundementals need to be rethought?

What Jeff is trying to say is you can't say you are doing a specific design for sure without even knowing what the game is. My favorite example of this is 2009, the game with regulation wheels and a low-friction playing field. If your team decided that you'd use 4" wheels and the kitbot for the 2009 season without knowing what the game was, come kickoff day you'd be disappointed to find that due to rules, restrictions, and the way the game was played, that the chassis you decided on using either isn't allowed, or isn't the best solution to the game.

He isn't saying that you shouldn't decide to use the kitbot and go custom. He's saying that you shouldn't make any decisions before you've seen the game and decided your strategy. This year we wanted a long robot (kitbot on steroids, to be exact) before seeing Rebound Rumble. After seeing it, we decided a wide robot would be advantageous for us due to more room on the bridge and a wider pickup area.

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Why is this so? .... Before I face palm in frustration could you please explain to me how my fundementals need to be rethought?

I believe his intent was to suggest not placing all your eggs in one basket quite yet.
Until we really know what the game is, it would be very prudent to NOT commit to any design specifics just yet.

As an example:
If you had decided and committed to make a high torque, multi-speed drive train before kickoff in 2009, when Lunacy was introduced, you would find you had shot yourselves in the proverbial feet.

The game can dictate different aspects of a drive-train.

Now, based on what we KNOW is included in the KOP this year, the assumptions on the needs of the drive-train for 2013 can be narrowed down quite a bit.
4" high grip wheels, ToughBox Mini transmissions with 10.7:1 reduction, belt drive up to 6 wheels, from the KOP. Based on those facts, you should be able to get fairly close to a final decision without even seeing what the game is.

But, nothing should be set in stone just yet.

[Dr Theta]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Why is this so? We have had sub par results in our 10 years of doing it the way that we have. We dont have enough resources to devote time to custom things and would be better served using the provided frame. The rest of the team felt that this would be a good approach. I am reaching out to the chiefdelphi community asking for advice. Before I face palm in frustration could you please explain to me how my fundementals need to be rethought?

I feel your line of reasoning is sound and that taking a good objective look at your performances and resources is always a good thing. It is however good practice to withhold all design decisions until the game is announced. While the kitbot is almost always a viable drivetrain, and you have probably committed to it from a resource standpoint by choosing it above the voucher, it is still good practice to take another look at it at the start of the season. Odds are probably around 99% that you will go with your kitbot and never look back, but there is always the possibility that the design is not optimal for the game in question.

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Why is this so? We have had sub par results in our 10 years of doing it the way that we have. We dont have enough resources to devote time to custom things and would be better served using the provided frame. The rest of the team felt that this would be a good approach. I am reaching out to the chiefdelphi community asking for advice. Before I face palm in frustration could you please explain to me how my fundementals need to be rethought?

I am refering to the idea of "deciding" or "convincing" your team what drivetrain you will use, or any other detail about your robot, before anything about the game is known. Making design decisions before any of the criteria are known. That is the approach I am advising rethinking. What if the KBoS is entirely inappropriate for the game? Bumps, ramps, obstacles, stairs, platforms, climbing, etc., etc. Design is the process of meeting and reacting to a challenge. Design decisions before the challenge is even known are just a shot in the dark. What is more likely to succeed, a decision based on the challenge, or one made before the challenge is even known?

[1493kd]

Thank you for the responses. I should have added that we could still go away from the design based on if the game design is such that the kit frame may not be the best choice. But for most games we have been part of some kind of modified kit bot would work. I was just looking for advice before everyone was in deep for this years game

[mcarobotics]

Where can you get a KB on steroids? or is it something you build?

[Phyrxes]

Courtesy of team 1114: http://www.simbotics.org/resources/kitbot

[1493kd]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

I am refering to the idea of "deciding" or "convincing" your team what drivetrain you will use, or any other detail about your robot, before anything about the game is known. Making design decisions before any of the criteria are known. That is the approach I am advising rethinking. What if the KBoS is entirely inappropriate for the game? Bumps, ramps, obstacles, stairs, platforms, climbing, etc., etc. Design is the process of meeting and reacting to a challenge. Design decisions before the challenge is even known are just a shot in the dark. What is more likely to succeed, a decision based on the challenge, or one made before the challenge is even known?

I completely agree with your, with our past experiences of spending to much time making drives that worked sub par why not try a different approach this year if the game would allow for it. My fault was that I did not state that we would not go with it if the game had some element that made it not a poor choice for this game.

I did feel however that the comment about the face palming was a little out of line and not a good example of mentor to mentor communication and not how we should model they way we communication for students.

[alb4h]

[quote=billbo911;1206564] .....snip....

Now, based on what we KNOW is included in the KOP this year, the assumptions on the needs of the drive-train for 2013 can be narrowed down quite a bit.
4" high grip wheels, ToughBox Mini transmissions with 10.7:1 reduction, belt drive up to 6 wheels, from the KOP. Based on those facts, you should be able to get fairly close to a final decision without even seeing what the game is.

....

Where did you get this info? How do you know what's in the KOP already?
Ann

[EricH]

Originally Posted by alb4h

Where did you get this info? How do you know what's in the KOP already?
Ann

Frank released the KOP drivebase specs quite a while ago--back in September, as I recall--via the FRC blog. (read down to the third paragraph)

As for the rest of the KOP, some of that can show up in the rookie/veteran comparison, but the rest is speculation or maybe announced on the FRC blog if it's major.

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

I did feel however that the comment about the face palming was a little out of line and not a good example of mentor to mentor communication and not how we should model they way we communication for students.

That was intended with humor but perhaps missed. My fault.

[billbo911]

[quote=alb4h;1206768]

Originally Posted by billbo911

.....
Where did you get this info? How do you know what's in the KOP already?
Ann

Originally Posted by EricH

Frank released the KOP drivebase specs quite a while ago--back in September, as I recall--via the FRC blog. (read down to the third paragraph)

As for the rest of the KOP, some of that can show up in the rookie/veteran comparison, but the rest is speculation or maybe announced on the FRC blog if it's major.

C'mon Eric, I wanted to give the impression I was Psychic, now I just look psycho. Hehehe

Actually, thanks for linking to the actual blog post. I should have done that when I made my comments. Leaving the info hanging without supporting it is not quite as helpful as it could have been.

[MattC9]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

I guess we'll all find out when the Kit Bot is released tomorrow.

Wait its being released... Tomorrow?

[Siri]

Originally Posted by MattC9

Wait its being released... Tomorrow?

Well, sort of. It's out now, but it's encrypted.