Climbing Rules

[Racer26]

I suspect some of the first Q&A questions will be related to the no more than 2 sections climbing rule, and how it interacts with the floor.

My suspicion is that we'll see a Team Update that allows you to be in Layer 0, 1, AND 2, but afterward only 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.

[ddesportes]

We have the same conundrum with climbing through level 2. If the robot grips the bar at the top of level 2, presumably part of the gripper is over top of the bar and, therefore, in Level 3. If at the same time the robot still has some attachment to the bar at the top of Level 1, the robot would be in three levels at once. I sincerely hope this is not the intent of the rules.

[Redo91]

[G22] Robots must contact the pyramid in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Redo91

Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.

So...does this make scaling corners as difficult as I think it does?

[Redo91]

Originally Posted by Siri

So...does this make scaling corners as difficult as I think it does?

Only as difficult as you design it to be.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Redo91

Only as difficult as you design it to be.

Sorry, I meant legally. If the issue is contacting pipes within each zone (agreed), is it legal* for a robot to grasp the corner joint of the 30" pipe and of the 60" pipe? (Essentially analogous to your original explanation, which I agree with, but brought next to objects that run the full heights of the zones, obfuscating "occupy".) This is not to say that climbing slanted pipes would be harder--a la 2010 vertical climbers--but rather to investigate the legal issues surrounding working at corner joints.


*Perhaps I should say "wise" rather than "legal". Anyone close enough to brush against the wrong side of a slanted pipe seems to be in a precarious position technical position--and making it very tough on the refs! I'd loathe to see those DS lights turn yellow...


EDIT: or, you know, what Don said. [part 2]
@Don for part 1: I think he's referring back to this concept of climbing early and then coming down to score more.

[Redo91]

I think wise is the word you are looking for. There is not much room to grab onto a corner. It would probably be a judgement call by the referee observing the robot.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Siri

So...does this make scaling corners as difficult as I think it does?

I think the welds at the corners are what make corner-scaling difficult.


I keep thinking of climbing a ladder. A normal person would put a foot on one rung, a hand on the next, before starting the climb-this would not be a legal climb (three levels are contacted).
Taking it a step further - let's say the ladderclimber is standing on the first rung and tries to ascend to the second. This person is not allowed to touch the third rung for stability - (s)he must fully release from the first rung before contacting the second.
This with the understanding that each level begins with the horizontal plane tangential to the top of the rung - I can't think of how to consistently and explicitly contact a round horizontal member at only one point, and that one point exactly at the vertical top. But, this game is only 27 hours old, clarity may come.
The 1/9 opening time for Q&A feels like a lifetime away. Especially since the response time is historically such a wild card.

[Ekcrbe]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I keep thinking of climbing a ladder. A normal person would put a foot on one rung, a hand on the next, before starting the climb-this would not be a legal climb (three levels are contacted).
Taking it a step further - let's say the ladderclimber is standing on the first rung and tries to ascend to the second. This person is not allowed to touch the third rung for stability - (s)he must fully release from the first rung before contacting the second.

Not the first rung, just the ground.
The first and second rung are consecutive levels.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Ekcrbe

Not the first rung, just the ground.
The first and second rung are consecutive levels.

Right, but if Level 0 is considered a level, then there's a problem.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I think the welds at the corners are what make corner-scaling difficult.

I think the bot can "ride" the corner pole, including the "bumps" at the junctions. The only plan I can think of to climb and not violate the 2 bar rule, is to cimb up the inside (which only has enough room for 1 bot), or climb up one of the corners.

Climbing up an outside side has the problem of: Eventually you can only hang on one bar as you grab the next higher one. When you are hanging, the center of mass will cause 1/2 your robot to hang inside the pyramid. Not a deal killer, but it takes additional motor power to swing the bot back to the outside of the pyramid to clear the lower bar.

For corner climbing, the bot grabs onto the horizontal pole on each side of the corner, and the thrid point of contact is the verticle pole. The verticle pole keeps the bot from swinging under the pyramid.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by gburlison

What is your interpretation of G4 ?
"3.2.1.4 G04
ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field Supervisor.

Additionally, if any part of the ROBOT is in Level 3, TEAMS are required to attach a FIRST supplied belay line, detailed
in Section 2.2.6, to their ROBOT to spot a ROBOT while the TEAM removes it from the PYRAMID."

I dunno, it seems pretty straightforward to me.. The TEAM removes the robot (not another team or FRC volunteers/staff)
The power must be off
The FTA, FTAA, Ref or FS must be watching

And if you are at level 3, wait for FRC folks to direct you with the Belay thingie.

Originally Posted by Redo91

Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.

Yes, it does. It is clear to me that the AIR around and within the pyramid is NOT the pyramid. Contacting the top of the first bar is NOT touching any of the second zone of the pyramid. Sure, it touches AIR in the second zone (by the thickness of your hook), but not the pyramid.

I would still like to see a Q&A submission asking if a robot grappling the lowest (30") horizontal bar with a hook is occupying 2 zones (legal) or 3 zones (illegal, because of the slight projection of the hook into Zone 2, plus contact with the floor (zone 0) and the first horizontal bar (zone 1).