Climbing Rules

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by gburlison

What is your interpretation of G4 ?
"3.2.1.4 G04
ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field Supervisor.

Additionally, if any part of the ROBOT is in Level 3, TEAMS are required to attach a FIRST supplied belay line, detailed
in Section 2.2.6, to their ROBOT to spot a ROBOT while the TEAM removes it from the PYRAMID."

I dunno, it seems pretty straightforward to me.. The TEAM removes the robot (not another team or FRC volunteers/staff)
The power must be off
The FTA, FTAA, Ref or FS must be watching

And if you are at level 3, wait for FRC folks to direct you with the Belay thingie.

Originally Posted by Redo91

Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.

Yes, it does. It is clear to me that the AIR around and within the pyramid is NOT the pyramid. Contacting the top of the first bar is NOT touching any of the second zone of the pyramid. Sure, it touches AIR in the second zone (by the thickness of your hook), but not the pyramid.

I would still like to see a Q&A submission asking if a robot grappling the lowest (30") horizontal bar with a hook is occupying 2 zones (legal) or 3 zones (illegal, because of the slight projection of the hook into Zone 2, plus contact with the floor (zone 0) and the first horizontal bar (zone 1).

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Redo91

Only as difficult as you design it to be.

Sorry, I meant legally. If the issue is contacting pipes within each zone (agreed), is it legal* for a robot to grasp the corner joint of the 30" pipe and of the 60" pipe? (Essentially analogous to your original explanation, which I agree with, but brought next to objects that run the full heights of the zones, obfuscating "occupy".) This is not to say that climbing slanted pipes would be harder--a la 2010 vertical climbers--but rather to investigate the legal issues surrounding working at corner joints.


*Perhaps I should say "wise" rather than "legal". Anyone close enough to brush against the wrong side of a slanted pipe seems to be in a precarious position technical position--and making it very tough on the refs! I'd loathe to see those DS lights turn yellow...


EDIT: or, you know, what Don said. [part 2]
@Don for part 1: I think he's referring back to this concept of climbing early and then coming down to score more.

[Redo91]

I think wise is the word you are looking for. There is not much room to grab onto a corner. It would probably be a judgement call by the referee observing the robot.

[u13mbenshoshan]

Hello to all FRC participants,
I have read throught the rules and have a question that the rules dont refer to.
Can you climb up the pyramid or begin the climb before the last 30 seconds of the match?
This question is' in my opinion very important to understanding the flow of the game and can bring new strategies to the table.

I thank you all in advance

Team #2230

[Kevin Sevcik]

You haven't found anything in the rules that says you can't. The rules have nothing in them about when you're allowed to start climbing. Ergo, you can start climbing whenever you like. The GDC is usually very specific and clear when they want to limit activities to some smaller portion of the match.

[RSaunders]

The top paragraph of page 6 (the end of section 3.2.4.2) has a pretty clear example:

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a robot has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than 2 Levels at a time) ...

This says your robot may extend into the Levels whenever it wants (subject the the 84" rule (G22). Your robot may only touch Level 0 and Level 1 (the ground and the lowest bars) then Level 1 and Level 2, etc. Your robot must touch Levels in sequential order per 3.2.4.2.A.

[TVwazhere]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

You haven't found anything in the rules that says you can't. The rules have nothing in them about when you're allowed to start climbing. Ergo, you can start climbing whenever you like. The GDC is usually very specific and clear when they want to limit activities to some smaller portion of the match.

Except a revision probably. That or you have 2 minutes to get it right

[OkieSoar]

We've been discussing the same question and initially concluded that there was no restriction in the written rules about when to start the climb. However, in the game video this might remain uncertain as it says

"near the end of the match" the human players can start throwing their discs.

In the next statement, it says, "at the same time, robots drive to their pyramids and start to climb"...

These comments are at about 2:20 into the game animation video.

If you look through the rules book, specifically 3.3.37 G35-B, for when human players can start to throw discs onto the filed:
"during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP"

If the 'at the same time' statement in the game animation video is firmly linked to when human players can start to throw discs, this suggests the climb can only start in the last 30 seconds of TELEOP.

Not completely sure of this interpretation but for initial planning purposes it might be prudent to plan on climbing during the last 30s. But there's no specific rule we've found so far that addresses when the climb starts other than the linkage through the game animation video.

Dave R
Mentor - Team 2165

[astronomer_bh]

I am trying to figure out if you can still get the 30 points if you pull your robot partially above he level 3 zone, for example, if the robot had arms pulling it up so that the bottom of the robot was above the 2nd bar, and the top of the robot extended above to even with the pyramid target

[dodar]

Does everyone believe that the rule prohibits a robot from climbing the pyramid during the match and then say scores in the pyramid goal and then lower itself to retrieve frisbees and then repeats the process?

[MetalJacket]

The disks remain in the goal, there's a basket.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by MetalJacket

The disks remain in the goal, there's a basket.

Im not asking about the scoring part.

[snowmobiler9]

There is nothing in the rules that i have spotted saying you cannot climb during the match as long as it is done in the proper way. One thing that i would look at though is the fact that there are only 6 Frisbees allowed to be put in the top goal

[MetalJacket]

Originally Posted by dodar

Im not asking about the scoring part.

If there's no disks to retrieve then there's no reason to go back down. Unless you were talking about going back to get the other two? In that case, rule G4 makes that a little iffy since it says that the robot may only be removed by the team, unpowered and under FTA supervision. So you'd then have to determine if they mean that removing the robot is just at the end or any time when the robot is coming off the pyramid, in which case coming back down under robot power would be illegal.

[dodar]

Actually this part of rule 3.1.5.2 pretty much says you can drop back down and give the climb another go to get the right climb points you want: If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.