Ultimate Ascent Strategies

[ProgrammerTori]

Originally Posted by pmangels17

As far as climbing, the rules say that you must contact the zones consecutively, and you can only contact two zones at a time. However, they clearly mark the floor as zone zero. Does that mean we cannot contact above the first horizontal before we are off the floor?

I think so, at least from what I've read it seems that way. There's no way to skip the first rung... If you are going to aim for the top, you'll need to be able to lift a robot at least 3 times or resort to climbing the edge of the pyramid.

[Tetraman]

Teams are going to have a hard time climbing the Pyramid in sequential order.

*buzzer* Wrong. Never underestimate the power of teams. Unlike some feats like 2010's suspending off of a hanging robot or 2005 stacking of vision tetras, the Point total of climbing a pyramid is well within the necessity of going for it. While I'm guessing most teams will stop once they get to the second level, that extra 10 points comes with a direct route to the Pyramid Goal and well worth spending a season for.

Shooters are going to be inaccurate at best.

*buzzer* Wrong! Due to the fact there are no air currents in most all venues, a shooter that works is going to work. Also, I highly doubt that when play-testing this game, the GDC would be alright in having sub-par shooting all game long. They must have found that shooting into a middle or high goal is possible, easy, and effective. A winning alliance MUST have at least one effective shooter.

Shooters are going to make bank.

*buzzer* Wrong! Unlike last year, robots HAVE to pick up discs from their feeder station, which is on the opposite side of the field. Last year the balls could bounce their way across, but these discs will just fall (and fall directly into your opponent's side). Therefore, your robot will have to make the trip back and fourth. Consider the number of tubes scored by one team in Logomotion was about 5-6, and most of those tubes ended up mid-field and only if they had a clean hang. Teams that needed to go long distance for their tube only made about 4 trips at best. Taking 4 trips to the feeder station is probably the maximum as well, since it will take time to load and shoot (and don't forget the defense played in this game). A good shooter will make about 12-14 discs in a middle or high goal each game, which is between 24 and 36 points. Still not enough to beat a 50 point climb.

Picking up from the floor will be a winning strategy.

*buzzer* Wrong! Let's go over a few things. Other than the 10 that start on the floor, every other disc that will end up on the floor will be a missed shot. Unless you miss all four of your shots, picking up from the floor one or two pieces is not worth the time it takes as just going over to the opposite side of the field and picking up four fresh discs. At best, you make every shot - therefore unless your team mates are bad shots you'll have plenty to pick from, but even still the tempo lost in shooting 2 you picked up from your side of the field is less than shooting 4 you got from the feeder station. Don't get me wrong though: while I don't think it is a winning strategy, teams that can be 'street sweepers' and make better use of the discs on the ground can be winners.

This game is like Aim High or Rebound Rumble.

*buzzer* Wrong! This game is 2004 (FIRST frenzy) and 2007 (Rack n' Roll). In FIRST frenzy, many of the teams that were able to hang on the high bar could win the match just because they simply could hang on the high bar and their opponents couldn't. 50 Point climbs are going to be the same way. This isn't like balancing the bridge with 3 robots - this can take place every match that robot is in - therefore your opponents are playing to at least have to score more than 50 points or they lost the match. In Rack n.' Roll, defense and disruption was by far the most important element to winning a match. It is quite clear that of all the games to play defense, this is the most critical. However, playing defense is riskier than Rebound Rumble, as hitting a robot that is touching their Pyramid is NOT the same as hitting a robot that is touching their Key.

This game is going to be fun to watch.

*buzzer* Wrong! This game is going to be fun for veterans of FIRST to watch. It has been since 2007 that a defensive game was designed. Yea, 2010 had defense, but it was never important for every single match. This year the offense needs to be pin-point (and I am quite sure it will be), because playing defense is at the top of everyone's list. It will be a struggle for the first 1:15 of play, then 45 seconds of end-game awesome we haven't seen since Double Trouble.

The same teams that win each year are going to win this year.

*ding* Correct! as well as *buzzer* WRONG! This year nothing is for certain until week 6 is in the books. I feel that while the best teams show off they are the best teams, their partners are going to be quite different than the usual suspects. 1st seeds will fall to 2nd seeds easily, but no one else will really defeat the alliances better than them. Scouting systems are going to be tested to the ultimate extreme, and understanding the flow of the game will be the key to positioning one's robot for victory.

[Gir_450]

Originally Posted by MetalJacket

The problem with that is that the low goal is just not worth enough for many teams to really care. You might prevent a rookie team from scoring but most veterans aren't going to depend significantly on low-goal scoring.

That's actually what we're thinking, if you run back with 4 frisbees, then dump them all at once, then run back and keep repeating the process. Then if other teams on the alliance are scoring better and are getting blocked, swap to defense and plow into the blocking robots. The thing with frisbees is if you mess up your aim but just a couple degrees, the whole thing will be off and you will consistently miss because a defense bot keeps nudging you.

[PayneTrain]

A few things.

Some of you seem to like planning around failure. Don't do that. You doom yourself to failure

Get a solid feel for the game. Run simulations. There are always things you think you know about the game until you see it played out. Try to create an environment similar to the game either in a computer or real, tactile setting. Your understanding of field size, travel time, defensive abilities vs offense capabilities, volume of game pieces in play... they are not things found in a rule book, but are just as important to consider.

Play devil's advocate. Challenge the status quo with convincing evidence. This is not the time to draw lines in the sand and box yourself in.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

*buzzer* Wrong. Never underestimate the power of teams. Unlike some feats like 2010's suspending off of a hanging robot or 2005 stacking of vision tetras, the Point total of climbing a pyramid is well within the necessity of going for it. While I'm guessing most teams will stop once they get to the second level, that extra 10 points comes with a direct route to the Pyramid Goal and well worth spending a season for.

Suspending was definitely worth it to the average team, IMO the GDC figured it was obvious and teams missed it. If you could suspend another team with you you're at 1.5 times the median alliance score all season long without scoring a single soccer ball.

Originally Posted by Tetraman

*buzzer* Wrong! Due to the fact there are no air currents in most all venues, a shooter that works is going to work. Also, I highly doubt that when play-testing this game, the GDC would be alright in having sub-par shooting all game long. They must have found that shooting into a middle or high goal is possible, easy, and effective. A winning alliance MUST have at least one effective shooter.

Go back and watch matches from 2006, 2009, and 2012. Teams have not traditionally built good shooters. The average alliance scored only 4 points in teleop last year in qualifying. If shooters were easy, that number should be way higher!

Originally Posted by Tetraman

A good shooter will make about 12-14 discs in a middle or high goal each game, which is between 24 and 36 points.

Based on most reasonable definitions of "good" I would absolutely take this bet. (Doesn't undermine that hanging will be important, or that picking up is going to be hard)

And FWIW, I'm not sure "*buzzer* Wrong!" is the best way to get a great discussion going.

[Nemo]

Autonomous scoring is hugely important. Not only are the points an important boost, but autonomous scoring is again the first tiebreaker for seeding.

Also, I think the extra autonomous points available by picking up extra game pieces and scoring them is easier this year than it was in 2011 or 2012. Last year it was hard because the balls varied, and since you didn't know where they were going to start on the bridge, you didn't know just where they'd roll to as you tipped the bridge. This year the game pieces shouldn't vary as much and they start in known locations. Plus you don't have to race your opponent to get them. I think a bunch of teams who already have floor pickup and basic autonomous scoring are going to upgrade their auto routines as the season progresses. It will be pretty tough to seed higher than a team that can consistently score 3+ discs in the autonomous period, assuming they have a good tele-op plan as well.

[AllieS4246]

I agree. Autonomous scoring will be critical. Teams that can score autonomously will be the top seeds, if they have good enough resources along with ample drivers they will have no problem scoring. A climb and dump robot may be able to get 50 points, but a solid shooter with a 10 or 20 point climbing ability will still beat it out.

[MysterE]

Ok -

With all of this discussion I have another question to ask: What do you think will be the Elite hidden design? Last year we had the stinger. The year before that we had the slalom mini-bot deploy systems. What about this year?

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by MysterE

Ok -

With all of this discussion I have another question to ask: What do you think will be the Elite hidden design? Last year we had the stinger. The year before that we had the slalom mini-bot deploy systems. What about this year?

Some crazy device to climb the tower in less than 3 seconds

[ctccromer]

My team set the priority very clearly as
Reliable Post-game (20 or 30) > Reliable Pre-game (hit the 6's every time using reflective tape) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> picking up frisbees to be able to play the main game.

As in.. Let's get those first two and determine things from there. If we think it's a good option, we'll play the game. If we don't want to risk adding more, we'll play defense in the main game

[Peragore]

How about an upgraded hanger (the one I am pushing for currently): Hang for thirty, dump twenty, and deploy a net at the back of the holding area for disks to take the last two at a toss. 60 point climb, and then just have low/(maybe middle, depending on whether middle is above 60") capability. Think this would work pretty well.

Another idea was the "Ultimate Assist Bot", as it were. Camp under the feeder station, with a holding area in its back, and just shoot all the disks down to the friendly side of the field so others can go for threes.

Also, going back to the pickup idea, anyone ever used a pooper scooper or something to the effect? I was doing some "testing" with my hands, and I found that two relatively flat flaps coming together, much like a backhoe or something like that, make it very, very easy to pick up disks. Just have that skimming the floor, and lifting the disks up to the holding bay.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

*ding* Correct! as well as *buzzer* WRONG! This year nothing is for certain until week 6 is in the books.

*buzzer* WRONG! There is a week 7.

[Sean Raia]

Originally Posted by Peragore

Another idea was the "Ultimate Assist Bot", as it were. Camp under the feeder station, with a holding area in its back, and just shoot all the disks down to the friendly side of the field so others can go for threes.

You may see this type of bot play into some alliances strategies, but there's no need to explicitly design for it.

I don't foresee a ton of teams being able to ground-load, unlike in rebound rumble.
The teams that can load from the ground and feeder station quickly will be the top tier teams (not because its essential, but because its a sure advantage)

Someone asked what the "stinger" of the year would be... first, i'd say that it's too early to guess as we've only been looking over the game for 24 hours. If I had to guess though, i think the "stinger" will be some ridiculous climbing device

[nathan_hui]

Well, for shooting at the high goals, you could be up to 10 degrees off at the pyramid and no one would be any wiser.

[AllieS4246]

In general, I think people are over expectant of the scoring. A basketball was much easier to shoot last year than a frisbee will be. This means more will be on the ground that most are speculating. Especially in seeding, not many team will be able to hit points consistently. This makes it very important to be able to ground pick up. The discs fed from the window will be important, but are limited. The bots who can manage both will be the only ones with a good chance at being on the regional winning alliance.