My Hopper/Dumper Idea

[Ayukura]

Originally Posted by DjMaddius

I've been one of the drivers every year since I've started and heck yea. Penalties always manage to change the pace of the game and may very well decide the winner several times over. I always do a complete read of the rule book and a double of everything I'm involved in such as programming, controls, and driving.

Yeah, I was a driver at our last competition for Rebound Rumble. (CalGames). We lost one of our matches simply because we got a foul for touching their bridge, because our alliance robot bumped into us on accident... Oops!

[G Fawkes]

There may be a rule clarification that impacts this strategy. The manual states that the human players can begin throwing discs when there is 30 seconds left(G35). The animation states that near the end of the match the human players begin throwing the discs over the wall and the robots head to the pyramids to begin their climb.

[DjMaddius]

Originally Posted by G Fawkes

There may be a rule clarification that impacts this strategy. The manual states that the human players can begin throwing discs when there is 30 seconds left(G35). The animation states that near the end of the match the human players begin throwing the discs over the wall and the robots head to the pyramids to begin their climb.

Ah, well it isn't specified as the 'end game' in the manual. Only as climbing, so I hope they don't change it to the last 30 seconds. It will be VERY difficult to get the level 3 in that time I believe.

[MrRiedemanJACC]

I think your idea is a great one. Here in Michigan you have to be good at something and very good at it to get picked for an alliance. I am a mentor on team 2611 and we were at Wayne State with you guys last year. Teams our size have a tough time at it because if we try to do to much we won't be very good at anything. And then we get left behind. We are considering the same strategy that you mentioned in your first post. Get the 50 points and do it consistently...

[mikegrundvig]

After last year's competitions, I have serious doubts about teams making tons of consistent 3 point shots. If your robot can climb quickly up and down (call it 20 seconds each way for instance) as well as dump into the pyramid top bin and the lowest scoring hole it could look something like this:

Dump two discs in the lowest hole during autonomous, go back and reload with 4 colored discs. Climb the pyramid and dump those discs. Climb back down and hand reload with 4 white discs. Drive to the other side, dump those white discs. Drive back and hand reload the last two colored discs and climb the pyramid and dump them. Match ends. That adds up like this:

6 points (auto from behind the line)
20 points (4 colored)
4 points (4 white)
10 points (2 colored)
30 points (pyramid at the end)

That's a total of 70 points and seems like a reasonable amount of time for each task assuming you have a good climbing mechanism. Even if you have to let other robots in your alliance handle the colored discs, making three runs down field for 12 pts + the 30 pt climb and the 6 pt auto makes for 48 points scored by a single robot.

This would make for a very solid robot that had only three subsystems - drive, dump, and climb. No need to pick discs from the ground and flip them over if needed. No need to have a power-hungry and physically large shooter. In fact, this design could make for a quite small and light robot; which in turn makes climbing easier.

Anyways, just food for thought.

-Mike

[DjMaddius]

Originally Posted by MrRiedemanJACC

I think your idea is a great one. Here in Michigan you have to be good at something and very good at it to get picked for an alliance. I am a mentor on team 2611 and we were at Wayne State with you guys last year. Teams our size have a tough time at it because if we try to do to much we won't be very good at anything. And then we get left behind. We are considering the same strategy that you mentioned in your first post. Get the 50 points and do it consistently...

Glad to see a near by team impressed with our ideas! It is VERY difficult in Michigan with all the regionals and states plus all the powerhouse teams for the smaller teams to make it big but I think we can do it this year if we can climb for 30 points and dump 20 in every time.

Originally Posted by mikegrundvig

After last year's competitions, I have serious doubts about teams making tons of consistent 3 point shots. If your robot can climb quickly up and down (call it 20 seconds each way for instance) as well as dump into the pyramid top bin and the lowest scoring hole it could look something like this:

Dump two discs in the lowest hole during autonomous, go back and reload with 4 colored discs. Climb the pyramid and dump those discs. Climb back down and hand reload with 4 white discs. Drive to the other side, dump those white discs. Drive back and hand reload the last two colored discs and climb the pyramid and dump them. Match ends. That adds up like this:

6 points (auto from behind the line)
20 points (4 colored)
4 points (4 white)
10 points (2 colored)
30 points (pyramid at the end)

That's a total of 70 points and seems like a reasonable amount of time for each task assuming you have a good climbing mechanism. Even if you have to let other robots in your alliance handle the colored discs, making three runs down field for 12 pts + the 30 pt climb and the 6 pt auto makes for 48 points scored by a single robot.

This would make for a very solid robot that had only three subsystems - drive, dump, and climb. No need to pick discs from the ground and flip them over if needed. No need to have a power-hungry and physically large shooter. In fact, this design could make for a quite small and light robot; which in turn makes climbing easier.

Anyways, just food for thought.

-Mike

Exactly what I was thinking! You can pull a LOT of points without a lot of weight this year if you design it correctly and don't even worry about how frisbees fly. Take that issue straight out of the game and you loose the 2ptn and 3ptn but you're very light and can climb easier.

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by mikegrundvig

After last year's competitions, I have serious doubts about teams making tons of consistent 3 point shots. If your robot can climb quickly up and down (call it 20 seconds each way for instance) as well as dump into the pyramid top bin and the lowest scoring hole it could look something like this:

Dump two discs in the lowest hole during autonomous, go back and reload with 4 colored discs. Climb the pyramid and dump those discs. Climb back down and hand reload with 4 white discs. Drive to the other side, dump those white discs. Drive back and hand reload the last two colored discs and climb the pyramid and dump them. Match ends. That adds up like this:

6 points (auto from behind the line)
20 points (4 colored)
4 points (4 white)
10 points (2 colored)
30 points (pyramid at the end)

That's a total of 70 points and seems like a reasonable amount of time for each task assuming you have a good climbing mechanism. Even if you have to let other robots in your alliance handle the colored discs, making three runs down field for 12 pts + the 30 pt climb and the 6 pt auto makes for 48 points scored by a single robot.

This would make for a very solid robot that had only three subsystems - drive, dump, and climb. No need to pick discs from the ground and flip them over if needed. No need to have a power-hungry and physically large shooter. In fact, this design could make for a quite small and light robot; which in turn makes climbing easier.

Anyways, just food for thought.

-Mike

Last year used inconsistent foam. This meant that no 2 basketballs were exactly alike. Frisbees are hard, only weights are variable, and 5 grams my seem like a lot, but if you build bot that shoots an average weighted frisbee, lighter ones will hang a little longer, heavier might dip a little faster, but I am certain that 5 grams wont make as big of a difference as inconsistent foam density did with the basketballs. I would even go as far to say you cant judge this game off last year's, because the game pieces are so different. Last year's relied on compression, weight, speed, angle, even foam chunked out of the pieces, this year seems a little simpler in my opinion, frisbees equal weight, spin, and angle speed, they are hard - takes out inconsistancy of messed up pieces. Just saying i think it is entirely possible for consistent 3's. And a little compared to your scoring, it might look like this
16 points shot into high goal (Auto behind line)
12 Points for 4 shots into high goal (do this 4 or 5 times, so about once per 15 seconds, all you have to do is load 4, rapid fire and repeat)
10-30 points for hanging
Once perfected, this strategy could and probably will make anywhere from 74 (worst case scenario) to at least 106 points a bot (awesome scenario) and these scores don't even include shooting onto top of pyramid.

[mikegrundvig]

After seeing some of the shooters people are playing with this year, I do believe that there will be some solid shooters in general. I don't think 100%, but reasonably consistent is feasible.

I think your 16-20 3pt shots is a bit optimistic though. Let's assume you need only 15 seconds to get whatever climbing score you can make. That means starting 3/4 of the way down the field, race back to your filling station, fill 4 discs, race back to the other side of the field, aim, and fire four perfect shots consistently in 21 to ~27 seconds. To get 20 shots in 105 seconds means 5.25 seconds/shot and hitting all of them.

Personally, I believe really good shooters will likely preclude the ability to be really good climbers though that's certainly a guess. I think a more realistic scenario would be this:

0:15 - 16 pts auto
0:55 - 12 pts shot
1:30 - 12 pts shot
1:55 - 12 pts shot
2:15 - 10 pts hanging, match over
62 pts total. That's assuming 15 perfect shots and the ability to hang on the first rung reasonably quickly.

Being pessimistic on my scenario would look like this:

0:15 - 4 pts auto
1:15 - 20 points (4 colored - assuming a slow 45 second climb/descent)
2:10 - 10 points (2 colored)
2:15 - 30 points (pyramid at the end)
64 pts total. Any speed improvements in the climb/descent will translate into the ability to dump discs into the 1pt target.

I believe there will be amazing shooting robots that can nail those shots but I also feel that a small, fast climber with simple dumper can really hold it's own this year while being a simpler robot all around.

-Mike

[AlDee]

Originally Posted by DjMaddius

Ah, well it isn't specified as the 'end game' in the manual. Only as climbing, so I hope they don't change it to the last 30 seconds. It will be VERY difficult to get the level 3 in that time I believe.

I've been struggling with this all day for clarification. As you say the rules are very vague, however, I just replayed the animation, and 2:15 they mention the that

"near the end of the match human players can throw discs onto the field and try to score. At the same time, robots drive to their pyramids and start to climb for bonus points"

The rules do spell out in 3.2.7.2 G35 that

"Discs may be fed onto the feild only under the following circumstances:

A. During TELEOP through the feeder slots and
B. during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP over the FEEDER
STATIONS."

I would infer from this that this is the "same time" that they mention in the animation, and therefore the climbing period would be during the last 30 seconds. It would be nice if they provided a little more detail on the climbing.

I suspect we'll see some clarification on this soon.

[AndyBare]

3.1.1 MATCH Setup
Before the start of each MATCH, the ARENA is populated with 118 White DISCS, 6 Red DISCS, and 6 Blue DISCS. DISCS are staged as follows:

No more than two (2) or three (3) White DISCS may be preloaded in each ROBOT by the TEAM, depending on the ROBOT’S starting position (see G06 for details).
At least ten (10) White DISCS are staged on the FIELD approximately as illustrated in Figure 3-1.
Two (2) DISCS are centered between the GUARDRAILS and 78 in. from the Blue ALLIANCE WALL to the center of the DISC.
Two (2) DISCS are centered under the Blue PYRAMID.
At least two (2) DISCS are placed centrally between the GUARDRAILS and along the field CENTER LINE.
Any DISCS not preloaded in ROBOTS per part Aabove (e.g. the ROBOT is preloaded with fewer than three (3) DISCS, the ROBOT isn’t in the MATCH, etc.) are placed adjacent to the DISCS on the CENTER LINE. The non-preloaded DISCS are added to each side of the existing pair such that the group of DISCS on the CENTER LINE is centered. If there is an odd number of DISCS staged on the CENTER LINE, the extra DISC will be placed on the scoring table side of the group.
Two (2) DISCS are centered under the Red PYRAMID.
Two (2) DISCS are centered between the GUARDRAILS and 78 in. from the Red ALLIANCE WALL to the center of the DISC.
6 Red & 45 White DISCS are located in the Red ALLIANCE STATION.
6 Blue & 45 White DISCS are located in the Blue ALLIANCE STATION.
ALSO...
3.1.5.1 DISC Points
Additionally, for a DISC to be considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S PYRAMID GOAL, it must correspond to the PYRAMID color. This means that white discs cant even be scored in the pyramid goal, so only 60 points can be gotten by a climber bot, solely off climbing = 30 for 6 colored discs (5pts each) and 30 climbing points.
Sorry to crush the dreams of climbing fans, but i hope this helps. you will probably be outscored by shooters.

[AndyBare]

I do however encourage this strategy, i think it will going back to previous comments be unique, and a wanted robot, good on a alliance with shooters, bad on a alliance with other climbers.

[DjMaddius]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

I do however encourage this strategy, i think it will going back to previous comments be unique, and a wanted robot, good on a alliance with shooters, bad on a alliance with other climbers.

Yea, and it seems a LOT of teams are making some pretty decent shooters, or at least have prototyped for them. As usual its luck of the draw with alliances until you can choose. I believe with 2 teams that can pull 10 ptn hangs and us with 50 points we can win nearly every match with that 70 points total. We'll surely do pretty good if not win 7/10 matches! Just guessing from the point totals though. We all know how different it ends up being.

[AndyBare]

Yeah, good luck and may the FIRST? be with you.

[NanoCollins]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

While I think this is a pretty cool strategy, you only have 2 minutes teleop, last 30 seconds for climbing, but since you are revolved around that you'd probably have that set. 8/10 climbs would mean you are making a fresh climb every 20 seconds, giving you about a little under 10 seconds to get up the pyramid and back down, at which point you would start immediately again. Maybe i am missing something, but this seems a bit far-fetched, because you would still have to be getting frisbees between repelling and starting a new climb.

A problem withjust climbing the pyramid is that I think only the colored diskscan go in the pyramids. Plus if you fall at all from the top... your robot is DOOMED .

[DjMaddius]

Originally Posted by NanoCollins

A problem withjust climbing the pyramid is that I think only the colored diskscan go in the pyramids. Plus if you fall at all from the top... your robot is DOOMED .

Yea, we know of the issues. We're tossing a few designs around still. Brainstorming this year is lasting a bit longer than normal. We need to be VERY safe, and there are a lot of rules. Its a lot more difficult than we thought but hey, it is FRC right? haha, and yea only colored can go in. No issue, we only plan to go up once so we'll take 4 colored up with us.