Go to Post *gasp* robot? what robot? we were suppose to build a robot? - LightWaves1636 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Programming
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2013, 22:45
ctccromer's Avatar
ctccromer ctccromer is offline
Animus
AKA: Tucker Campbell
FRC #3753 (Bulah Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 190
ctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to all
First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Trying to plan things out right now and have a couple questions:

What's the easiest/best camera to use? We have the Kinect from last year, but I've heard a lot about "Axis" cameras, and I don't know if there's another good option besides those two. Are there certain pros/cons for each camera or any deciding factors?

Once I've decided which camera to use:
What is the easiest/best PROGRAM to use? I'm coding in LabVIEW this year but also know basic C++ and Java, I have RoboRealm (program provided in the KoP) installed and ready on my laptop, and I've also seen stuff about something called SmartDashboard. Again, pros, cons, deciding factors, anything helpful?

Thanks!
__________________
Team 3753 BulahBots
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2013, 23:51
jacob9706 jacob9706 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jacob Ebey
FRC #3574 (High Tekerz)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 101
jacob9706 is on a distinguished road
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctccromer View Post
Trying to plan things out right now and have a couple questions:

What's the easiest/best camera to use? We have the Kinect from last year, but I've heard a lot about "Axis" cameras, and I don't know if there's another good option besides those two. Are there certain pros/cons for each camera or any deciding factors?

Once I've decided which camera to use:
What is the easiest/best PROGRAM to use? I'm coding in LabVIEW this year but also know basic C++ and Java, I have RoboRealm (program provided in the KoP) installed and ready on my laptop, and I've also seen stuff about something called SmartDashboard. Again, pros, cons, deciding factors, anything helpful?

Thanks!
I would like to say that I just posted a basic OpenCV tutorial on Chief Delphi. We use a ps3 eye cam because of the high fps.
__________________
/*
* Team 3574 Alumni
*
* 2011 - Highest Seeded Rookie
* 2011 - Rookie All-Star
* 2012 - Engineering Inspiration
* 2012 - Olympic Deans List Winner
* 2013 - Engineering Inspiration
* 2013 - Judges Award (For unique circular robot and the way the team works together.)
*/
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 07:51
Greg McKaskle Greg McKaskle is offline
Registered User
FRC #2468 (Team NI & Appreciate)
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 4,756
Greg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

You have several well supported options in the KOP and WPILib.
The Axis cameras were selected to go in the KOP because they are a pretty good choice to use with the control system and WPILib. Does your team still have one?

The examples that come with LabVIEW, Java, and C++ demonstrate how to process the image on either the cRIO or the DS laptop.

I'd advise that you get the basics working before worrying about high framerate or coprocessors or ...

Consider the camera as a sensor. What does it need to tell the rest of the robot, and how often. Will the robot be shooting while flying across the field, or will it be stationary while the saucers fly? Don't make it any more complicated that you need to.

Greg McKaskle
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 10:26
Ido_Wolf's Avatar
Ido_Wolf Ido_Wolf is offline
LabVIEW Addict
AKA: Ido
FRC #2230 (General Angels)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Israel
Posts: 42
Ido_Wolf is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

This page might be a good place to start at. As Greg McKaskle said, there are plenty of example code projects designed with the Axis camera in mind, and it's become so friendly for the user that at this point you can practically process an image and send a target's X and Y relative coordinates as well as the diagonal range from the target to your robot, barely modifying the original codes of the Dashboard, default cRIO project or the vision processing example.

You can use other cameras of course, and it might be useful for some purposes, but you're gonna have to make sure that the camera is legit, as there are certain rules about the bandwidth and the ports you're allowed to use, and also there are some rules about the physical and electrical aspects of the camera so make sure you read those.

Out of the 2 types of Axis cameras, I'd go with M1011. Note that if you're gonna use 206, there's a certain control in Vision where you need to define that (I think it affects something about the lens' resolution? Kinda forgot that...)
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 12:14
ctccromer's Avatar
ctccromer ctccromer is offline
Animus
AKA: Tucker Campbell
FRC #3753 (Bulah Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 190
ctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to all
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

okay so I just checked and we DO indeed have an Axis Camera and the brackets. However we do NOT have the ring of light that was mentioned in the whitepaper on retro-reflectivity. How essential is that, or is it?

From what yall are saying and what Ive found so far in my googling efforts, it sounds like our Axis camera is the way to go.

Now I just need to decide HOW I want to use it. It sounds like yall are saying to 1) Add to the LabVIEW code and 2) use an image processing program, similar to how you have to have a driver for a different controller.
So with that in mind, to get started, do I just need to read the whitepaper on LabVIEW image processing programming and decide on an image processing program (such as the KoP provided RoboRealm)?

My teacher and I were discussing it all today and realized we actually didn't know if people let it automatically adjust shots, or if they use the camera on the driving computer to see through the camera while playing the game and use that to manually adjust the shooter based on what you can see through the camera's vision.
__________________
Team 3753 BulahBots

Last edited by ctccromer : 07-01-2013 at 14:39.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 12:21
nathan_hui nathan_hui is offline
Registered User
AKA: Nathan Hui
FRC #2473 (CHS Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 228
nathan_hui will become famous soon enoughnathan_hui will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to nathan_hui
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

The ring light isn't necessary, but provides the ability to concentrate light around the camera, so it's pointed at the target.

2473 used a pair of high-density LED lamps, which blinded any inspector looking at the bot, but they worked beautifully on the field (targets were completely saturated, so the lines stood out really well).

You can use the camera to automatically calculate a firing solution, if you can write the appropriate algorithms. You could simply draw a crosshairs on the DS and aim like that. The more advanced solution would be automatic target acquisition and firing.
__________________
Nathan Hui
B.S. Electrical Engineering, UCSD '16
FRC 2473 (CHS Robotics), Team Captain '12
FTC 4950, 6038
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 12:58
fb39ca4 fb39ca4 is offline
Registered User
FRC #1899
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 195
fb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to all
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_hui View Post
2473 used a pair of high-density LED lamps, which blinded any inspector looking at the bot, but they worked beautifully on the field (targets were completely saturated, so the lines stood out really well).
Would that be a safety issue?

OP, have you looked at Roborealms? There was a voucher for a copy included in the KoP.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 13:59
nathan_hui nathan_hui is offline
Registered User
AKA: Nathan Hui
FRC #2473 (CHS Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 228
nathan_hui will become famous soon enoughnathan_hui will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to nathan_hui
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fb39ca4 View Post
Would that be a safety issue?
Inspectors loved it. So...
__________________
Nathan Hui
B.S. Electrical Engineering, UCSD '16
FRC 2473 (CHS Robotics), Team Captain '12
FTC 4950, 6038
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 14:32
ctccromer's Avatar
ctccromer ctccromer is offline
Animus
AKA: Tucker Campbell
FRC #3753 (Bulah Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 190
ctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to all
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fb39ca4 View Post
OP, have you looked at Roborealms? There was a voucher for a copy included in the KoP.
Installed it on my laptop but have yet to look at it at all (still don't have a good enough idea about the whole subject to get into more specific things like individual programs)

What exactly does RoboRealm do as opposed to the extra coding in LabVIEW if I want to use automatic tracking with an algorith? What does it do opposed to LabVIEW if I want to just use a crosshair and the camera feed?

Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake here. Last year I just gave some ideas and helped build things, so I'm overwhelmed with all the technical stuff now. I can't thank yall enough for all the help

EDIT: When I mention extra coding in LabVIEW btw, I'm referring to the stuff mentioned in the LabVIEW whitepaper. ...Which brings up another question. What's the difference between the PC and cRIO parts of this?
As far as my understanding, you code the robot's stuff in LabVIEW on the computer, then copy/image it over to the cRIO where it actually runs on the robot. However that means they'd be the same so surely there's something I'm missing
__________________
Team 3753 BulahBots

Last edited by ctccromer : 07-01-2013 at 14:38.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 15:03
nathan_hui nathan_hui is offline
Registered User
AKA: Nathan Hui
FRC #2473 (CHS Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 228
nathan_hui will become famous soon enoughnathan_hui will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to nathan_hui
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Vision processing may be done either on the cRIO or the DS or on a coprocessor.
__________________
Nathan Hui
B.S. Electrical Engineering, UCSD '16
FRC 2473 (CHS Robotics), Team Captain '12
FTC 4950, 6038
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 16:18
ctccromer's Avatar
ctccromer ctccromer is offline
Animus
AKA: Tucker Campbell
FRC #3753 (Bulah Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 190
ctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to allctccromer is a name known to all
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_hui View Post
Vision processing may be done either on the cRIO or the DS or on a coprocessor.
What's the difference between doing it for one as opposed to the other though? If it's automatic tracking do you just do it on the cRIO and if it's a crosshair and the camera output do you just do it on the PC, or is it more complicated than that?
__________________
Team 3753 BulahBots
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 16:32
Greg McKaskle Greg McKaskle is offline
Registered User
FRC #2468 (Team NI & Appreciate)
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 4,756
Greg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

You may write code for automatic tracking using any combination of cRIO, DS computer, or coprocessor. There are tradeoffs between different approaches.

I suspect you have a cRIO and a DS computer already. I suspect you do not yet have a coprocessor. If you get a coprocessor, you have to power it, mount it, boot it, and program it.

There are a number of ways to use the DS laptop, but you must also make it send data back to the robot.

The cRIO is perhaps the easiest to program, but is not a very fast CPU.

And there are many other tradeoffs you can use to evaluate which solution is for you.

Greg McKaskle
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 16:33
fb39ca4 fb39ca4 is offline
Registered User
FRC #1899
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 195
fb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to allfb39ca4 is a name known to all
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctccromer View Post
What's the difference between doing it for one as opposed to the other though? If it's automatic tracking do you just do it on the cRIO and if it's a crosshair and the camera output do you just do it on the PC, or is it more complicated than that?
The driver station has more CPU power than a cRIO, but there will be more latency because the picture has to be transmitted over wifi. Alternatively, you could keep a dedicated image processing computer on the robot and get the best of both worlds.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 19:38
bvisness's Avatar
bvisness bvisness is offline
Programming Mentor, Former Driver
FRC #2175 (The Fighting Calculators)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Woodbury, MN
Posts: 183
bvisness is a glorious beacon of lightbvisness is a glorious beacon of lightbvisness is a glorious beacon of lightbvisness is a glorious beacon of lightbvisness is a glorious beacon of lightbvisness is a glorious beacon of light
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fb39ca4 View Post
The driver station has more CPU power than a cRIO, but there will be more latency because the picture has to be transmitted over wifi. Alternatively, you could keep a dedicated image processing computer on the robot and get the best of both worlds.
By default, you probably are already streaming the camera image to the driver station PC, so it should be fairly easy to adapt the dashboard code to run image recognition. Last year the only thing we had to send back to the robot were the coordinates of the rectangles we were tracking, so we didn't have any latency issues.
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2013, 19:40
jacob9706 jacob9706 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jacob Ebey
FRC #3574 (High Tekerz)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 101
jacob9706 is on a distinguished road
Re: First year for Image Processing. Need Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvisness View Post
By default, you probably are already streaming the camera image to the driver station PC, so it should be fairly easy to adapt the dashboard code to run image recognition. Last year the only thing we had to send back to the robot were the coordinates of the rectangles we were tracking, so we didn't have any latency issues.
I would like to point out that they are prioratizing packages this year so anything not directly related to the robot or field info will be put in a que..... We are continuing to use our separate pc because we saw a team loose two regionals because of this issue.
__________________
/*
* Team 3574 Alumni
*
* 2011 - Highest Seeded Rookie
* 2011 - Rookie All-Star
* 2012 - Engineering Inspiration
* 2012 - Olympic Deans List Winner
* 2013 - Engineering Inspiration
* 2013 - Judges Award (For unique circular robot and the way the team works together.)
*/
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:21.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi