Climbing Mechanism Ideas

[Donut]

The difficult thing about helping partner robots up the pyramid is that they also have to satisfy the rules for ascending the pyramid in the proper order. They couldn't simply drive up a giant ramp or ride a lift up to the 3rd level, since they would need to contact a point on each level of the pyramid on the way up.

I think an inside climb might be slightly easier because you can grab a bar from beneath and winch or lift up, but I'm concerned about accidentally contacting the ground (level 0) when going from level 1 to level 2. Also you couldn't fit multiple robots inside the pyramid very well (not that we'll see many triple climbs anyway...).

[moogboy]

Originally Posted by Donut

The difficult thing about helping partner robots up the pyramid is that they also have to satisfy the rules for ascending the pyramid in the proper order. They couldn't simply drive up a giant ramp or ride a lift up to the 3rd level, since they would need to contact a point on each level of the pyramid on the way up.


(not that we'll see many triple climbs anyway...).

I think the wedge is a dead end for helping robots climb, myself, but a helper robot could be just a giant box with a flat front and a strong climbing mechanism that would support another robot from behind. Or, and this would be more difficult to implement because it would require more planning, a robot that was incredibly good at climbing and could pull another robot up from behind.

The triple climb could go a number of ways. Three robots on three different corners/planes at the third level means 90 points(!) Even three robots on the same plane/corner could be 60 points, which means it's worth considering creating a really strong climber that can bring one or two other robots with it.

[jason701802]

Originally Posted by Donut

The difficult thing about helping partner robots up the pyramid is that they also have to satisfy the rules for ascending the pyramid in the proper order. They couldn't simply drive up a giant ramp or ride a lift up to the 3rd level, since they would need to contact a point on each level of the pyramid on the way up.

What if you lift them up such that they never touch anything other than level 0?

[mrnoble]

I'm worried. I see a lot of posts from folks who are misinterpreting the rules, and I'm worried that we'll see a host of unusable robots at the regionals. Yes, there is need for clarification from QA about whether the airspace directly above the tops of each rung constitutes a new zone, but I think the clear intention of the rules is that we find a solution that only allows us to touch (or exist in) two zones at a time. We therefore can't slide up the rungs, or use a hooked conveyor belt, or ski up them. Clearly, it would be much easier if you could balance on two rungs as you reach for a third, but you can't. you will have to freely swing from each rung as you try grasp the next one up.

Not trying to be a party pooper. I really do want to see some cool solutions, but I have been to enough events to have seen the heartbreak of teams who misread the rules, and have to play defense as a fallback, or completely rebuild on game day.

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I'm worried. I see a lot of posts from folks who are misinterpreting the rules, and I'm worried that we'll see a host of unusable robots at the regionals. Yes, there is need for clarification from QA about whether the airspace directly above the tops of each rung constitutes a new zone, but I think the clear intention of the rules is that we find a solution that only allows us to touch (or exist in) two zones at a time. We therefore can't slide up the rungs, or use a hooked conveyor belt, or ski up them. Clearly, it would be much easier if you could balance on two rungs as you reach for a third, but you can't. you will have to freely swing from each rung as you try grasp the next one up.

Not trying to be a party pooper. I really do want to see some cool solutions, but I have been to enough events to have seen the heartbreak of teams who misread the rules, and have to play defense as a fallback, or completely rebuild on game day.

According to the manual:

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

... emphasis mine ...

I agree there needs to be clarification from QA, but I see nothing that indicates the "air" in a level is "contacting" or "touching" the pyramid. So I'm not clear how such posts are "misintrepreting" the rules. Please show the rule or part of the manual that suggests your intrepretation.

Thanks!

Steve

[Siri]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I'm worried. I see a lot of posts from folks who are misinterpreting the rules, and I'm worried that we'll see a host of unusable robots at the regionals. Yes, there is need for clarification from QA about whether the airspace directly above the tops of each rung constitutes a new zone, but I think the clear intention of the rules is that we find a solution that only allows us to touch (or exist in) two zones at a time. We therefore can't slide up the rungs, or use a hooked conveyor belt, or ski up them. Clearly, it would be much easier if you could balance on two rungs as you reach for a third, but you can't. you will have to freely swing from each rung as you try grasp the next one up.

Not trying to be a party pooper. I really do want to see some cool solutions, but I have been to enough events to have seen the heartbreak of teams who misread the rules, and have to play defense as a fallback, or completely rebuild on game day.

Touch and "exist in" are not synonyms. The sequential & simultaneous contact rules are about just that (contact). Whether the airspace above the rung constitutes the next level (which it does) is immaterial for this purpose, because contact is based on the steel, not the air. Skiing, driving, hooking, etc are only illegal if they contact the steel in the next level before losing contact with n-2. I don't see anything in these posts that indicated teams don't understand this?

[Erik Huang]

Originally Posted by frank.pendzich

I believe this contest is really a test of team’s abilities to work together to scale that structure. That may be the reason why an individual robot can’t make contact with more than two rungs at a time and can only skip the first rung. It seems that we’re being setup to work together and it’s that feature that may in fact be designed into the game as the desired outcome by the game’s designers.

I brought that idea up at kickoff, but people were especially skeptical that such a thing might be possible. The amount of coordination between teams would be insane, especially if there isn't another robotics team near you.

Coming from the Montreal region, almost half of the teams at the Montreal regional will be rookies (either brand new teams, or 1 to 2 years old). Granted, some of them are insanely good, and are quickly catching up to us, but still, it would be really hard to organize and get everyone to stick with it.

If we could devise a standardized way to get two robots to climb together, that would be cool... but would it be a waste of time?

[nuggetsyl]

Originally Posted by washedout

Seeing 3 robots all score the 30 point bonus on one tower will be like seeing the Loch Ness Monster this season.

(Seeing one climb that high in about 4 seconds after the buzzer on the other hand...)



There ya go Paul!

J.

I think you will see teams go up in 4 secs but if you can do it after the buzzer then i will bow down now.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by Siri

Touch and "exist in" are not synonyms. The sequential & simultaneous contact rules are about just that (contact). Whether the airspace above the rung constitutes the next level (which it does) is immaterial for this purpose, because contact is based on the steel, not the air. Skiing, driving, hooking, etc are only illegal if they contact the steel in the next level before losing contact with n-2. I don't see anything in these posts that indicated teams don't understand this?

As I understand it, in order to ski up the rungs you must be supported by rungs 1 and 2, touch rung 3 and release rung 1, in that order. That is my concern; in order to meet the requirements of the rules, you must NOT touch rung 1 when you begin touching rung 3. That leaves you balancing on only rung 2. I don't see how that would work, but maybe I'm missing something.

[mrnoble]

I'm also taking into account that in order to score 10, 20 or 30 points, the robot must exist entirely above the plane that defines each zone. I don't think (from my reading) that a robot could, for instance, grab the first bar, then the second, release the first, grab the third, release the second, and be hanging with the wheels below the plane of first (or second) bar, and still get 30 points, regardless of whether the robot is touching any but the third bar.

[moogboy]

Originally Posted by Erik Huang

I brought that idea up at kickoff, but people were especially skeptical that such a thing might be possible. The amount of coordination between teams would be insane, especially if there isn't another robotics team near you.

If we could devise a standardized way to get two robots to climb together, that would be cool... but would it be a waste of time?

So this coordination...how much would a team REALLY need beforehand? A team could design a robot that is nothing more than a rectangle with an unbelievably strong climbing mechanism to push robots up as needed. That's a reasonable plan, in my view.

What about this for a vaguely universal coordination system:
Those are push pull scrapers. Basically one pulls up behind the other, lowers a big hoop onto a hook on the back of the other, and the amount of power available for pulling dirt up off the ground is instantly greater. So for FIRST teams, they could (very easily it seems) put a hook on the back and a window motor actuated hoop on the front and boom-universal system is ready to go. At least one team doing this has to be the first one on the pyramid, however, and they are going to need a climbing mechanism, so at least in theory a team could have only the hook on the back of their robot and others could hook on. Point is, this is well within the reach of most teams and the strains on a push pull scraper are many many times greater than what we would have with our FIRST robots, so making it smaller seems like it could work.

Now...does it make sense for teams to do this? I have no idea. I do think it's a reasonable thing for teams to put together and providing it does not violate any rules (none are coming to mind), it seems solid as long as a few teams close to one another do it.

[ewrado]

this is cool
http://youtu.be/kqGOwqWBV-E

[Siri]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I'm also taking into account that in order to score 10, 20 or 30 points, the robot must exist entirely above the plane that defines each zone. I don't think (from my reading) that a robot could, for instance, grab the first bar, then the second, release the first, grab the third, release the second, and be hanging with the wheels below the plane of first (or second) bar, and still get 30 points, regardless of whether the robot is touching any but the third bar.

Climb legality and scoring value are entirely different things. Climb legality is based on contact; scoring is based on the lowest point of your robot in space. Do you feel the manual has left this ambiguous? I can't quote it from my phone, but what would you want to see clarified?

Skiing: Ok, if that's your definition of skiing, then true (illegal). That isn't so much the way I've heard it used, but definitely agree people considering it should be made aware. Perhaps reach out to them directly?

[Donut]

Originally Posted by jason701802

What if you lift them up such that they never touch anything other than level 0?

Then the robot would not have performed a proper CLIMB, since it has not made contact with the pyramid. This results in no score.

[Randomness]

Originally Posted by Erik Huang

I brought that idea up at kickoff, but people were especially skeptical that such a thing might be possible. The amount of coordination between teams would be insane, especially if there isn't another robotics team near you.

Coming from the Montreal region, almost half of the teams at the Montreal regional will be rookies (either brand new teams, or 1 to 2 years old). Granted, some of them are insanely good, and are quickly catching up to us, but still, it would be really hard to organize and get everyone to stick with it.

If we could devise a standardized way to get two robots to climb together, that would be cool... but would it be a waste of time?

There is a standardized way: deploy a copy of the pyramid around one half of your robot (so including a corner and at least a few feet of bar to one side) at 30 inches. Any robot built to hang can then hang on that bar, then you can pull them up for 60 points. That depends on the other robot being able to hang, however.

It also depends on how you interpret the climbing rules... but it is my belief that robots have successfully climbed if they get to level 3 height without touching any parts of the pyramid.