Regarding the lifting of other robots

[indiv0]

Hello, our team has been wondering about the legality of lifting other robots onto the pyramid.

Our first question is:
Is it legal to indefinitely lift a robot on your team, provided the other member team in the alliance knows of this beforehand and has agreed to it, and that the lifting robot is touching the pyramid?

Second:
Provided that any length/robot diameter restrictions are not exceeded, would a robot lifted up by another robot to a higher level on the pyramid be considered a climb?

Third:
Would they have to touch every step of the pyramid on the way up for it to be considered a climb, or would our robot touching the higher level be enough?

Fourth:
If the answer to the third is yes, would simply touching each level with an extended arm or something (while being raised) be considered valid?

Thanks in advance!

[FrankJ]

I would expect the scoring rules would be literally interpreted. The rule says nothing about how the robot is supported, IE another robot, anitgravity, He-balloon, hovercraft. How ever all other rules most be followed.

They do say you have to touch each level in sequence, not supported by. So a brush of an appendage would suffice. G33 allows one robot to be supported by another as long as one of them is in contact with the pyramid. So a robot supported by another could potentially get to zone 3

If you are using a hovercraft, remember that it will power down at the end of the game & come crashing down if not otherwise supported.

[SenorZ]

You seem to have the right idea. A CLIMB is defined as contact with each level in sequence 0,1,2,3 and no more than 2 simultaneously. So piggy-backing and touching each level as you go should be legit.
I think this would be difficult to do up to level 3, but an assisted level 2 CLIMB is totally possible.

[3132MentorMike]

What is the delineation between the robot that's already climbed (i.e. the lifting robot) and the robot being lifted? So if you are going to lift another robot, does your lifting mechanism for the other robot count towards the climbing rules for your robot or the robot being lifted? For example, if robot #1 is hanging from from level 2 and grabs robot #2 from the floor and lifts it up 1 inch while robot 1's "lifting mechanism" touches the 1st rung of the pyramid for robot 2: would that be legal?

[elizabeth.hoyla]

The rules say "G33 A ROBOT may only be supported (fully or partially) by another ROBOT if one of the ROBOTS is in contact with a PYRAMID" so basically if the lifting robot is in contact with the pyramid and they make contact with each level then you should be good.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by SenorZ

You seem to have the right idea. A CLIMB is defined as contact with each level in sequence 0,1,2,3 and no more than 2 simultaneously. So piggy-backing and touching each level as you go should be legit.

I don't see a rule anywhere that states you must touch any level besides zero in order to receive legal climb points? Touching only the floor meets all the legality constraints of 3.1.5.2, at least. You have to contact in sequence, but there's nothing about contacting a level nearest the one for which you'd receive points. Why do you need to touch the levels?

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Siri

I don't see a rule anywhere that states you must touch any level besides zero in order to receive legal climb points? Touching only the floor meets all the legality constraints of 3.1.5.2, at least. You have to contact in sequence, but there's nothing about contacting a level nearest the one for which you'd receive points. Why do you need to touch the levels?

The second part of 3.1.5.2:

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.


If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time)

[Siri]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

The second part of 3.1.5.2:

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.


If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time)

This does not say that the robot must contact at least as high as level for which it receives points. If I contact only Level 0, I have both contacted in sequential order (sequence: 0) and no more than two levels at a time (1, in fact). Deemed legal, I can now receive credit based on the lowest point on my robot, which presumably is somewhere in Level 1-3. Again, I don't see the problem--where is the rule that states I must contact a level near the one for which I will receive points?

[jeleser]

Originally Posted by Siri

This does not say that the robot must contact at least as high as level for which it receives points. If I contact only Level 0, I have both contacted in sequential order (sequence: 0) and no more than two levels at a time (1, in fact). Deemed legal, I can now receive credit based on the lowest point on my robot, which presumably is somewhere in Level 1-3. Again, I don't see the problem--where is the rule that states I must contact a level near the one for which I will receive points?

There is no rule saying that. There is a rule stating how climb points are determined.

3.5.1.2
The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD).

Seeing as how no other rules are broken, the supported robot would gain as many climb points as whatever zone the lowest point is in.

[Kevin Sevcik]

So I have some advice for you and anyone else thinking about lifting up other robots this year:

Don't do it. Don't even waste any more time thinking about it or how cool it'd be or how many points you'd score. Because even if you design your lift system to be capable of this, it will never, ever happen. No one will be planning or expecting anyone to try this, so no one will have any way of latching onto your robot. So your extra beefy super powered lifter will only ever be lifting up your own robot. Which means you've spent time and pounds on a system that will never give you an advantage.

For those interested exactly how Team 57 has finally reached this conclusion after several years of bashing our heads against it, here's our history of robots on top of our robot:

My team has rarely resisted the lure of having another team drive over or on top of our robot for the purpose of lifting or balancing them. In 2007 we had a pair of wide, quick lifting ramps when lifiting your teammates was explicitly part of the game, and it worked well, though we tragically missed out on two regional wins. (Sorry Karthik.)

In 2010, our robot was a giant ramp so a teammate could drive onto the tower, and/or stay on top of us as we lifted ourselves, which was sort of relevant. It was a horrible idea and the only time it even sort of worked, we caught our teammate's bumper and flipped them off the tower. (Two years later, the pictures of this are pretty funny, actually.)

Just last year, we were finishing laying out things on the robot and said, "Hey, there's all this free space in front of the shooter tower... Let's have someone drive on top of us and balance with them!" We built the robot with nice grippy pads for someone to drive on and everything. It never happened. After seeing how fun balancing was with just the one robot, you'd have to be crazy to want to drive on top of our robot just to try to triple balance.

After last year, I instructed the students to throw something at me if I ever said the words "ramp" and "robot" in the same sentence during design talks this year.

[pfreivald]

On that note, finding an alliance partner that would trust you to lift them up the tower without dropping them would be... Well, let's just say that the four-second climb might not be the real Loch Ness Monster 2013!