Ultimate Ascent Strategies

[PVCpirate]

Originally Posted by Connerd

Is it possible to shoot the Frisbees upside down? That would fix the problem of either picking up only right side up ones, or having a flipping mechanism.

Here is the Robot in 3 Days test of upside down frisbees, should answer your question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyE4Ir6dkY8

[Citrus Dad]

Here's an assessment of this year's game's scoring:

Parameters:
- There are 72 potential points in autonomous.
- With 45 discs, the maximum points from fed discs is 135 points.
- Assuming that the colored discs are used at the end of the game, and most likely dumped directly in the goal after climbing the pyramid, an alliance can score 120 points on the pyramid. A single team can score 50 points by climbing and placing 4 discs. This procedure might even be easily automated.

Observations about likely outcomes:
- A single robot can probably score about 36-45 points in autonomous in cooperation with another robot feeding it. But most robots will score only 12 at best.
- We can expect roughly similar (or worse) teleop accuracy as last year's game. The best teams were scoring no more than 60-70 points in teleop, and most were less than 40.
- Unknown points can be scored with discs "owned" by the opposing alliance, but most likely, these will not be additive to the maximum available points.
- The floor will be littered with discs late in the game. This may affect strategies and tactics for the endgame.
- The best alliances will score 120 points in their endgame.

Given the parameters and observations, I expect the following scoring breakdown in the Einstein round:

- Autonomous: 36-45 points:
- Teleop: 60-70 points
- Pyramid: 120 points
- Total: 216-235 points

Note that the pyramid strategy has a high probability of reaching a full score in every match (unlike balancing 3 robots) once the climbing and placing tasks are mastered. On the other hand, the teleop scores will be highly variable and therefore riskier.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by AllieS4246

I agree. Autonomous scoring will be critical. Teams that can score autonomously will be the top seeds, if they have good enough resources along with ample drivers they will have no problem scoring. A climb and dump robot may be able to get 50 points, but a solid shooter with a 10 or 20 point climbing ability will still beat it out.

However, an alliance is more likely to have 3 solid climbers than 3 good shooters. 3 climbers will score 120 points before any baskets. If a bot can climb to 20 points, they can get 30 points, so the real option is 10 points for climbing. So an all shooting alliance would have to score 90 points and hold the other alliance scoreless.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Sinani201

I don't think so. Frisbees are going to have a lot less variation between shots so they'll probably end up being more accurate than the basketball shooters in RR.

Frisbees are much more influenced by outside factors, including the air conditioning flows that will be present and different in every venue. Open doors in the auditoriums also will affect the flights. Look at how the paper airplanes flew last year in St. Louis.

[Dr Theta]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

However, an alliance is more likely to have 3 solid climbers than 3 good shooters. 3 climbers will score 120 points before any baskets. If a bot can climb to 20 points, they can get 30 points, so the real option is 10 points for climbing. So an all shooting alliance would have to score 90 points and hold the other alliance scoreless.

I'm not Car Nack, but I think it is incredibly unlikely we'll see a 120 pt endgame this year.

[Adamc4]

Has anybody thought about trolling the feeder station that isn't in the safe zone? If you were against an alliance that was disorganized you could potentially pick up discs right next to your scoring zone, which would make things a lot easier and faster. And even if that wouldn't work, which it probably won't, you could still block off that feeder station entirely. That would be easy D while you are waiting for opportunities to pick up discs or pin, since the opposite alliance's feeder station will now be really congested.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Adamc4

Has anybody thought about trolling the feeder station that isn't in the safe zone? If you were against an alliance that was disorganized you could potentially pick up discs right next to your scoring zone, which would make things a lot easier and faster. And even if that wouldn't work, which it probably won't, you could still block off that feeder station entirely. That would be easy D while you are waiting for opportunities to pick up discs or pin, since the opposite alliance's feeder station will now be really congested.

There's quite a bit that can be done to the exposed feeder station*, but unless you're against a really disorganized alliance, even blocking entirely it wouldn't be overly useful on its own. It's a useful valve to maneuver game flow, but you can get a lot more out of it than just +1/3 to the loading zone congestion (which, by the by, is far from guaranteed to be the result of blocking the exposed feeder station).

Of course, in Week 1 quals we'll probably have human players trying to enter discs without alliance robots even nearby in which case of course you get to gobble up from both stations. Remember the benefits of discretion, though.

*There's also quite a bit to be done the loading zone...

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Dr Theta

I'm not Car Nack, but I think it is incredibly unlikely we'll see a 120 pt endgame this year.

I think you will see it at IRI. But not at any other event. Even at MSC, MAR, and the World Championship, I don't think there will be enough 30 point hangers to go around to field an alliance of three of them.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Dr Theta

I'm not Car Nack, but I think it is incredibly unlikely we'll see a 120 pt endgame this year.

He said that's the point breakdown on Einstein, but unless he is also counting the pyramid frisbees, if it's a per alliance score, that's impossible. Even with it, the likelihood each alliance will have 3 robots that can 30pt climb and hit every colored frisbee in the pyramid sounds like something I would have to see in person to believe. You might eke out some 120pt endgames at IRI MAR/MSC/CMP elims will probably have 70-90 point endgames with Einstein maybe getting 80-100.

There have been prominent members of the community that think floor loading will make or break a robot. If you have a consistent 3pt shooter, a drivetrain that can win shoving matches and move you across the field, and a fast wall loading system, you could probably get 4-6 loads from the feeder every match, depending on the defense. That's 48-72 points. This isn't like Logomotion where you can easily ricochet a game piece halfway across the field, but then again the volume of game pieces is incredibly high and accuracy of shooting outside of the elite will be paltry at best. On the other hand, you have to consider how much weight you would be willing to dedicate to the robot depending on the climbing system you want to create, how your team deals with the decreased frame perimeter, and a host of other things.

When you start putting things together, remember these common traps:
You will probably overestimate the field size.
You will also likely overestimate the frame perimeter this year.
With the first flat, unobstructed, largely open field since 2009, you can underestimate the potential defense will have.
In theory everything is perfect, in practice it could all catch on fire and/or melt.

[jwfoss]

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by jwfoss

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.

They aren't which is why teams really need to consider what their goals are this season, their resources, the events they attend, etc.

There is no ultimate strategy.

[pmangels17]

Frankly, the strategy should revolve around your teams resources. Many teams, ours included, have overstretched their means in a season, and need to be aware of the mechanical complexities of their robots and whether or not they can make such complex systems work. I like Robot in 3 Days, because they built something that can score a reliable, decent amount of points. Almost every team has the capability to do something like what they did. So the first thing to consider is, what is the best way for my team to score the most amount of points, not the best way for any team to score the maximum amount of points, depending on machining ability, shop time available (for those of us that work in schools, and don't have 24/7 access to their shops), budget constraints, driving skill, and design/CAD ability. Side note: every team has access to free CAD programs, both from Autodesk and Dassault (Solidworks). OUr team uses a combination of both, since we have students familiar with each.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by jwfoss

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.

If you want to be #1, first try to predict the alliance score. Then cut at least a third off of that number because the average alliance score is always overestimated for a number of reasons. You would want to build a system that guarantees a large autonomous score to break as many ties as possible, and because it can provide almost as many points per robot as the highest hang. You also want a consistent hanging mechanism, but to 1-seed a regional it just needs to work at level one or two consistently, not three.

If you want to ensure someone picks you, build a defensive-minded drive train and spend the rest of your time working on a 30-point hang that never fails. Intelligent scouting doesn't mean that as a captain you try to find the two best robots available for your team, but the two that best complement your strategy. Those that know that will probably pick a robot like that.

The ultimate strategy to win a regional is as team specific as it is event specific. Maybe you should aim to build a #1 robot that can pick up a great #2 and ideal #24 complement. Maybe your team should try to build a dark horse robot to be a surprisingly good late pick in selection.

The ultimate strategy to win championship lives or dies by the armory of resources a team has at its disposal, so that may be out of the picture for a lot of teams. I assume that on top of satisfying requirements for the #1 robot at a regional, you should have a way to consistently deliver the colored discs to the pyramid goal and definitely go for a solid 30 point climb.

[StAxis]

Originally Posted by jwfoss

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.

To qualify #1: Deadly accurate shooter with 10 point hang and fast floor pickup
To get picked: 30 point climb and dumping (shouldn't be underestimated, but I imagine alliances 6-8 will rely on climbing like they did balancing last year)
To win a regional: Robot as described to rank #1, a manual loading shooter or feeder, and a climb and dumper
-To win championships: 1 robot as described to rank #1, a decent shooter with 30 point climb ability, and a climber with dumping ability
-Depending on ability: For rookie teams, create a robot that can get frisbees loaded into you and then disperse them with an identical slot on the other side, fast load and shoot combo to get picked, then 10 point hang. For mediocre teams it's going to be a decision between climbing and shooting, but pick one and go after it. Finally for the elites of the world, if you can climb 3 levels in less than 20 seconds and still have a good shooter, which I believe at least someone will do, I will just sit there is awe.

[karomata]

Originally Posted by Sean Raia

This.

Also, your teams lifting mechanism in 2010 was very interesting... it was brought up a couple of times at our meeting today.

Now that you mention it, one of our prototyping teams is trying to create a design, in which our robot goes up to the corner of the pyramid, latches on with a mechanism similar to our 2010 robot, then lifts itself up. Then, using an identical mechanism on the other side, grabs the pole and flips itself over again, and it does that 2 or 3 times to reach the top.