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Unread 10-01-2013, 06:50
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Re: Registration 2013

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Originally Posted by Donut View Post
Where we're at in Iowa there are about 5 events equal distance from us but all are a 4-5 hour drive to get to so we'd be looking at substantial travel time for a district system.
Remember that the district system comes with new district events. Perhaps your team could sponsor a district event, so your first event would have distance 0. That happened in MI - the first year we started districts, there was one in Traverse City. There were only 2 teams in town, and another handful within a 1-2 hour drive. Yet it served as a catalyst for growth. In a smaller town, a FRC event is a big media event, and it was well publicized. There are several teams now in NW Lower MI that were started since we went to districts.

Truly remote areas do have travel problems; our friends in the UP can attest to that. Districts are not the perfect solution, but something will have to be done as the number of FRC teams continues to grow. Districts provide capacity, and also provide for growth in areas that have few teams now. Why doesn't Iowa have a dozen or more teams?
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Unread 10-01-2013, 11:04
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Re: Registration 2013

In my estimation, the district system doesn't have a major impact on driving distance from Iowa. We'd probably be going to Kansas City, St. Louis, etc, which are the same places we're going anyway.

I would be pretty happy to get into a district system because of the lower cost per event. I'd be sad to lose some of the current flexibility to travel in any direction to a regional event, but in the end we might retain that if everything goes district.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut View Post
How FIRST handles less population dense areas will definitely be key to the success of the District system. Having lived in Arizona as FRC got started there and Iowa now I've gotten a front row seat to FRC when there aren't a huge amount of teams or events around. The northern plains (Iowa, Nebraska, the Dakotas, western Kansas) and the mountain west (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming) don't have any events or many teams right now and have a substantial amount of distance to travel to the nearest events. Where we're at in Iowa there are about 5 events equal distance from us but all are a 4-5 hour drive to get to so we'd be looking at substantial travel time for a district system. The southwest (Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, lumping in Utah since they have a regional) has clusters of teams and a handful of events but they are spaced 6+ hours apart. Assuming teams could not compete in the California district events Vegas and Phoenix are the best off since they are 5 hours apart (though a Tucson, AZ regional has been discussed), Denver is over 7 hours from the closest competition. Eliminating the entry fee for a 2nd event sure helps but I think we could see a lot of "skeleton crews" consisting of the drive team and 1 or 2 mentors attending events when these areas become part of a district due to the substantial travel costs. Either that or teams will just forgo the 2nd event entirely.

Short of "forcing" new events in these areas and hoping new teams start up with them I'm not sure how FIRST is going to effectively move the District system into these areas on their timeline. I think it can happen in the future but 2015 is an ambitious goal for these regions.



We could always try to add one in Southern Minnesota/Northern Iowa If only there were teams there...
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Unread 10-01-2013, 16:35
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Re: Registration 2013

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
Don't expect to see it happen too terribly quickly, but I'm sure it will happen. There are potential issues with volunteers in the area if you suddenly have to support a larger number of district events (especially in the key volunteer roles like Lead Robot Inspector or Head Ref).

Next, how do you handle teams that don't easily fall into a region? There are still areas with very low FRC population density. For those areas, teams would need to travel for 2 district events, plus the district champs, plus champs, or find a regional farther away to attend. Today, they are likely traveling to their nearest regional, which could be in an area that could be converted to districts.

Based on the growth maps in the first post to this thread, there are clearly areas of the country where this wouldn't be much of an issue... but there are also areas where it would be.
Right now there is an abstract "eye test" one could use to determine whether or not a given area has adequate density for the district system. A think an obvious case would be Georgia and the Carolinas, which is an area that supports 3 regionals that fill up very quickly and have a team population larger than MAR, but I don't know what, if any metric would be used to determine if that area would be dense enough. Sure ,some teams will have long travel times, but so do some teams in FiM and MAR. I don't know the point at which it's too thin to be feasible.

I like to think at some point district events won't have to be tied into certain regional or state championships, but you register saying you want points to be tallied for eligibility for an available regional or state championship event so you can maintain flexibility some rural teams may need while still moving over to the low cost district format.

I feel like regions should be competing against each other to have the best representation possible at CMP. When MAR and MSC teams are playing twice as many matches as my team for the same price, I would like to do something to level that ASAP.

Last edited by PayneTrain : 10-01-2013 at 16:41.
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Unread 10-01-2013, 18:21
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Re: Registration 2013

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Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
A think an obvious case would be Georgia and the Carolinas, which is an area that supports 3 regionals that fill up very quickly and have a team population larger than MAR, but I don't know what, if any metric would be used to determine if that area would be dense enough.
I found that straight teams per square mile works well to compare two areas when I was seeing how New England measured up to Michigan. Doing a quick calculation for the area you described, the 3 states together have about .88 FRC teams per 1,000 square miles. In Michigan, the number is 2.16 teams per 1,000 square miles. While I wouldn't take that to directly translate to readiness to go to districts, it is definitely a factor.
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Unread 10-01-2013, 18:37
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Re: Registration 2013

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Originally Posted by PVCpirate View Post
I found that straight teams per square mile works well to compare two areas when I was seeing how New England measured up to Michigan. Doing a quick calculation for the area you described, the 3 states together have about .88 FRC teams per 1,000 square miles. In Michigan, the number is 2.16 teams per 1,000 square miles. While I wouldn't take that to directly translate to readiness to go to districts, it is definitely a factor.
Ah now I see, I must have read too quickly.
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Unread 10-01-2013, 19:06
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Re: Registration 2013

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Originally Posted by AcesPease View Post
I am a little confused. Is the density for New England higher if you include all six states?
Anthony's talking about down south, not New England:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
A think an obvious case would be Georgia and the Carolinas, ...
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Unread 10-01-2013, 19:13
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Re: Registration 2013

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
Next, how do you handle teams that don't easily fall into a region? There are still areas with very low FRC population density. For those areas, teams would need to travel for 2 district events, plus the district champs, plus champs, or find a regional farther away to attend. Today, they are likely traveling to their nearest regional, which could be in an area that could be converted to districts.

Based on the growth maps in the first post to this thread, there are clearly areas of the country where this wouldn't be much of an issue... but there are also areas where it would be.
This is a problem we have with 229 and 4124 at Clarkson.

Tab over really quick and google-map "Potsdam, NY". We normally attend either Rochester, or a New England event, because those are the things in the closest driving distance - Rochester is 4 and Manchester is 5 - (barring Canada- of which Montreal is 1 hour away, GTR E/W are 5 hours away...We have a lot of students who live on the reservation up here, and crossing the border can get very complicated)

Assuming New England and Rochester/Ohio each become districts of their own... We don't fall into either.

So, where do we go?
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Unread 10-01-2013, 20:56
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Re: Registration 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PVCpirate View Post
I found that straight teams per square mile works well to compare two areas when I was seeing how New England measured up to Michigan. Doing a quick calculation for the area you described, the 3 states together have about .88 FRC teams per 1,000 square miles. In Michigan, the number is 2.16 teams per 1,000 square miles. While I wouldn't take that to directly translate to readiness to go to districts, it is definitely a factor.
The first year of FiM saw team density at 1.36 per 1000 sq mi for what it's worth, but I agree that might be one to look at. I guess another one might be # of teams located within an x-mile radius of a proposed venue.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 01:26
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Re: Registration 2013

I don't think I made this apparent in my post, but I am in favor of the District system. I want more matches. I want to attend multiple events. I want to see more teams in FIRST because the barrier to entry is lower. What I wanted to bring up though is that many of the benefits of going to a District system aren't there for rural teams or when clusters of teams are very far apart from each other. The District system may be new in name only if few of the teams in these areas can afford the travel costs to go to the 2nd event that they now have free entry into and it doesn't produce any closer events for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
Remember that the district system comes with new district events. Perhaps your team could sponsor a district event, so your first event would have distance 0. That happened in MI - the first year we started districts, there was one in Traverse City. There were only 2 teams in town, and another handful within a 1-2 hour drive. Yet it served as a catalyst for growth. In a smaller town, a FRC event is a big media event, and it was well publicized. There are several teams now in NW Lower MI that were started since we went to districts.

...

Why doesn't Iowa have a dozen or more teams?
This was the only thing I could think of that FIRST could do right away to make Districts have a noticeable benefit in some of the more rural areas. I wasn't aware that they did that with success when FiM started, they may not need another strategy if that works as well in other regions.

The low quantity of teams in the Mountain West and Northern Plains is largely an issue of population and density. Iowa as a state has 3 million people and they're spread out over a fairly large region; a list of high school sizes I pulled up shows only 18 high schools with more than 1500 students and 42 high schools with more than 1000 students. If you had a FIRST team in every one of them it wouldn't be a problem but given the typical rate of FIRST teams relative to total high schools in a state the numbers just work out to a low total. The lower population density also means there are less businesses in any given area to be potential sponsors, and less potential mentors, etc.

Two things working in Iowa's favor:
1. Iowa launched a STEM initiative this year that more or less covers the cost of competition for FLL and FTC teams. There has been an explosion of growth in both of these programs in a few years, and I would suspect it could spill over into more FRC teams in the future.
2. Iowa has a really strong manufacturing base, so I feel that the percentage of the population that are engineers or some sort of skilled trade is higher than in some other states (just a personal observation).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
I feel like regions should be competing against each other to have the best representation possible at CMP. When MAR and MSC teams are playing twice as many matches as my team for the same price, I would like to do something to level that ASAP.
Who doesn't want twice as much competition time? I'm all in for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
In my estimation, the district system doesn't have a major impact on driving distance from Iowa. We'd probably be going to Kansas City, St. Louis, etc, which are the same places we're going anyway.

I would be pretty happy to get into a district system because of the lower cost per event. I'd be sad to lose some of the current flexibility to travel in any direction to a regional event, but in the end we might retain that if everything goes district.
For the current teams we have the District system would be nice as long as a few of the nearby events were options (this year all of the nearby events filled up before second regional registration opened). If students split up pretty evenly between the two events the travel costs would probably be about the same. I don't think the District system will start many new teams here unless a closer event ends up forming though.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 02:30
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Re: Registration 2013

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Originally Posted by Libby K View Post
Tab over really quick and google-map "Potsdam, NY". We normally attend either Rochester, or a New England event, because those are the things in the closest driving distance - Rochester is 4 and Manchester is 5 - (barring Canada- of which Montreal is 1 hour away, GTR E/W are 5 hours away...We have a lot of students who live on the reservation up here, and crossing the border can get very complicated)

Assuming New England and Rochester/Ohio each become districts of their own... We don't fall into either.

So, where do we go?
Gary already mentioned this, but that sounds exactly like what happened to the teams in the UP of Michigan. From Houghton (farthest teams from the lower peninsula) to the Traverse City district is about 6 hours, and the next closest district is 8 hours.

As the district system expands, remote teams will have to go somewhere, and it probably won't work in their favor. It's not as big of an issue in MAR, since the region is small in size. When (if) larger states start moving to districts, it's going to be a more widespread issue, and there's no way to make it fair (easy travel) for everyone. The best thing that can be done is starting up district events farther away from the central "hub" of teams for the region (which is Metro Detroit, in Michigan), if possible - it encourages the other teams to travel and still gives students the opportunity to experience the fun of a travel event, which the district system has kind of taken away. And, as Gary mentioned, it encourages growth in the less dense areas.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 10:05
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Re: Registration 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libby K View Post
This is a problem we have with 229 and 4124 at Clarkson.

Tab over really quick and google-map "Potsdam, NY". We normally attend either Rochester, or a New England event, because those are the things in the closest driving distance - Rochester is 4 and Manchester is 5 - (barring Canada- of which Montreal is 1 hour away, GTR E/W are 5 hours away...We have a lot of students who live on the reservation up here, and crossing the border can get very complicated)

Assuming New England and Rochester/Ohio each become districts of their own... We don't fall into either.

So, where do we go?
There's been talk of allowing the teams from the Albany area of New York to join the New England district system, since some of them usually attend New England events. Seems like the obvious solution to teams with no local events, allow them to do what works best for them.
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Unread 16-01-2013, 13:48
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Re: Registration 2013

An update.
Currently showing 2548 teams.

Things have slowed, but not stopped.
Some events are still adding and dropping onesies/twosies.

Since formal registration closed on December 6...
  • 37 new teams have added in - after Dec 6
    • 20 of the post-Dec 6 added teams above are rookies
  • 49 teams registered on Dec. 6 have dropped out
    • 22 of these dropped teams from Dec. 6 were rookies
These numbers don't count some teams that added in after registration closed and then subsequently dropped out.

So, the registration total for this season has dropped by a dozen teams so far. Last night we did get two more teams though, so we're not done yet.
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Unread 22-01-2013, 15:24
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Re: Registration 2013

Looks like Lake Superior & Northern Lights just swapped 6 teams around (3 from each) to balance things out I suppose.

One pre-qualified team (842) dropped off the Championships team list.
I hope it's only temporary.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 15:07
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Re: Registration 2013

FiM has begun assigning third District slots by assigning 9 for the Bedford District (the one with all the space left).

One Michigan team dropped out of Waterford & Livonia to make it 208 Michigan teams this year.

Overall, FRC has 2540 registered teams right now.
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Unread 06-02-2013, 10:37
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Re: Registration 2013

Another team (23) dropped off the list for Championship.

The Michigan Bedford event is still being filled with 3rd district event teams.

Total teams has been unusually volatile after registration closing this year.
I'll add a graph later tonight.
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