Globe motor legality

[Noah J. R.]

Hello, I am from team 3038 and am wondering if this motor is legal for the 2013 year?




This motor is unmarked and bears no serial, or model numbers. We're wondering if anyone can identify this motor. The only marking it has is "Asm. in Mexico"

Thanks!

[ksafin]

If it's not in the legal motors list it isn't legal.
Pretty simple

[EricH]

I can identify that Globe motor by sight. NOT legal. Sadly.

For anybody wondering, that's a Globe motor/gearbox combo. They used to come in the KOP, but were discontinued some years back (supplier stopped donating). They've been illegal ever since. They were great for light duty arms.

And it's definitely not a CIM. It's closer to an RS550, as I recall.

[Richard Wallace]

That is the venerable Globe motor. Sadly, no longer legal for FRC robots.

It served us well for many seasons.

For a 2013 legal alternative, try the AndyMark PG71 gearmotor, or a combination of the VEXPro BAG motor and a 100:1 Versaplanetary gearbox. Both of these actually outperform the good old Globe.

[WileyB-J]

Originally Posted by Noah J. R.

Hello, I am from team 3038 and am wondering if this motor is legal for the 2013 year?




This motor is unmarked and bears no serial, or model numbers. We're wondering if anyone can identify this motor. The only marking it has is "Asm. in Mexico"

Thanks!

Here's a similar sized motor with planetary gearbox that is legal: http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0914.htm

As noted above, that isn't a legal motor for 2013.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

The Globe motor stopped being a viable part when Globe changed the way they inventory parts. In the past you could order a specific part number and receive the motor shown. Globe now allows you to generate a part number for a custom built motor/transmission. The part number is generated as you choose motor size, voltage, reduction ratio, output shaft configuration and a variety of other options. This method allows them to provide variety to their customer base without the need to inventory motors in all available configurations.

[Dad1279]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

The Globe motor stopped being a viable part when Globe changed the way they inventory parts. In the past you could order a specific part number and receive the motor shown. Globe now allows you to generate a part number for a custom built motor/transmission. The part number is generated as you choose motor size, voltage, reduction ratio, output shaft configuration and a variety of other options. This method allows them to provide variety to their customer base without the need to inventory motors in all available configurations.

So the gearbox should be legal if mated to a currently legal motor?

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Dad1279

So the gearbox should be legal if mated to a currently legal motor?

If you have a thing that incorporates a motor, and you remove the motor, is the thing still considered a motor? This has usually been ruled not a motor, and thus acceptable (and justifiably so). However in this instance, the thing is itself sold a "Globe motor", which could provoke confusion and possibly a different ruling.¹

If it were me doing the inspection, I'd permit it. It might be worthwhile getting it on record from FIRST (via Q&A), so that all of the inspectors are on the same page.

(A possible complication is the issue of integrality: it's not really defined, except by example. If I remember correctly, the gearbox on the Globe initially wasn't considered integral, then it was integral for a while, then it wasn't again. And in 2012, the AndyMark gearmotors were considered to have integral gearboxes, despite being straightforwardly removable.)

¹ The 2009 Q&A stated that a motor (described there in the context of a motor without a gearhead) could not be modified beyond the limits of the manual, even if not used as a motor.

[Chris is me]

Now that you know this is illegal: If you are looking for a Globe motor replacement, consider a BAG motor mounted to a VersaPlanetary gearbox. The AM PG series gearmotors may also be useful to you. If you need help working out gear ratios and whatnot, I'll come back after I get some sleep and help.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Dad,
There is no ruling against using the transmission but you do have to account for the cost and it does need to be a currently available part from Globe. See section 4.1.3 "Budget Constraints" for more info. As others have pointed out, the AndyMark motor is a great substitute and it was intended as a replacement for the Globe.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

BAG is an internal acronym used at IFI whose name just stuck. I can tell you that the last initial stands for Globe. Those of you that remember the Globe motor and gearbox will understand our love for the Globe motor. We figured we could design a better Globe motor ...

In case you're still looking for a replacement, and don't want to use a gearmotor.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Dad,
There is no ruling against using the transmission but you do have to account for the cost and it does need to be a currently available part from Globe.

It could also be COTS for other reasons: available from other vendors (like scrap dealers¹), or formerly COTS and retrieved from an old FRC robot (see R19²).

I've been led to believe that these Globe 409A587 gearmotor assemblies were once COTS, and discontinued by Globe many years ago (even though we kept receiving their old stock in the KOP). Their original application was to shift the transfer case of a pickup truck/SUV (I believe the gearmotor is equivalently GM part number 15636696), hence their potential COTS availability through automotive scrap dealers.

¹ The implications of the ARA program from last year are reason to expect that a scrapyard could be a qualified vendor for this part. Also, some other vendor (not Globe) might still have them available.
² The requirement that it be functionally identical to its original condition may also lead to some rule-interpretation headaches.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Tristan,
To keep confusion to a minimum, the ARA program in 2012 was limited to specific motor types...R48 I. up to 2 window lift, seat, windshield wiper or door motors obtained through either the FIRST-Automotive Recyclers Association partnership or from a prior years’ KOP." That rule is not in the 2013 Robot Rules.

The rules for COTS items is
4.1.5.1 R19
COTS items from ROBOTS entered in previous FRC competitions that are no longer commercially available may be used only if they are functionally equivalent to the original condition as delivered from the VENDOR.
While there were some years where the Globe transmission was ruled as "not integral" using one this year might require a response from the Q&A to be sure.
While the Globe part may have been used in automotive applications, many satellite dish manufacturers used them for polarity and azimuth feedhorn positioners.