How Much Defense Can You Play?

[Mr. Lim]

With the loading zone and pyramid being "protected zones" this year, I'm curious to just how much defense teams will play around those zones. Will defenders risk driving right up against protected robots? Will offensive robots risk pushing the defenders back to clear space or escape? Or will everyone keep some distance from each other to avoid taking penalties one way or another...

There are a few good Q&As on it, but the GDC can't comment on every specific hypothetical scenario. These are some examples:

Q255
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...ther-robot-cau

Q256
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...her-with-our-r

Q284
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...t-under-g27-or

As an offensive robot in a protected zone, if a defender comes to block you, would you push them back to create shooting space? Would you push them out of the way to create an avenue to escape out of the loading zone? Both of these risk getting assessed a G18-1 penalty. Or do you play it safe and just run away the moment a defender puts pressure on you.

As a defender, are you comfortable driving right up against a protected robot to block it? This risks getting a G30 penalty if the offensive robot pushes back. Or do you keep your distance so they can't hit you while they're still protected?

These are a lot of hypotheticals that will come up at regionals, but it appears we won't be able to clarify them all beforehand via the Q&A.

I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion to see what everyone's thoughts are. Recent "full court shooter" videos are starting to pop up. No doubt alliances will want to send a defender to deal with them. What exactly will you tell this defender to do?

[Jay O'Donnell]

I believe there will be two major types of defense bots this year. One is a tall robot sent to block shots, and the other is a quick, strong robot who will just get in the way in the middle of the field. A good driver can cause havoc with as much space as there is.

[ehochstein]

It might become a strategy to flip grounded frisbees over as well.

[xSAWxBLADEx]

Originally Posted by Jay Money 1058

I believe there will be two major types of defense bots this year. One is a tall robot sent to block shots, and the other is a quick, strong robot who will just get in the way in the middle of the field. A good driver can cause havoc with as much space as there is.

Why not have a net, and a strong robot?

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by xSAWxBLADEx

Why not have a net, and a strong robot?

You certainly could, you'd just have to pay special attention to your drive train and center of gravity.

[GCentola]

Originally Posted by Jay Money 1058

A good driver can cause havoc with as much space as there is.

This. It seems that the usual idea of defense is robot-robot. This can be effective, but then it just becomes a question of "can we push them" or "is it safe to hit them in this part of the field?" With 2 minutes to drive around, some of the most effective defense I have seen is played by strategic control of game-pieces or even by slowing down your opponent. With such a limited amount of time, slowing down your opponent with limited robot-robot contact can be just as effective. Offensive power is all about cycle-time (yes, pushing matches do slow teams down, but they aren't the only type of defense).

Game-piece control is a bit different this year (and IMO, a bit more difficult) so I don't know how many alliances or robots will pull it off effectively-especially because many teams seem to forsake floor-loading for feeder-only.

[TheMadCADer]

I could see a team doing well by going from one edge of the field to the other via the space under their own pyramid, blocking opposing robots as they drive by to their feeding stations. As long as they keep their wheels perpendicular to the robot they're defending and stay in good positions, they can certainly slow down other robots quite a bit and occasionally draw a penalty if they are touching the pyramid while blocking the 'lane'.

I don't see every team lining up with their tower to shoot, so I think a good defensive robot would be able to quickly ram into a robot lining up, throwing them off track, and maybe even making them miss their shot. It's quick, easy, and allows a single robot to shut down more than one opponent robot at once.

[kingbrandon14]

One good semi-defensive strategy is to go and pick up or herd frisbees from the opponent's side back to your own teammates, letting you score more and them score less. Also, if the robot could be short enough to drive under the pyramids, it could sort of camp under it and push opponents away before they have a chance to touch it. Just a strategy, we aren't using it though

[pfreivald]

I think defense will be huge this year.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by kingbrandon14

One good semi-defensive strategy is to go and pick up or herd frisbees from the opponent's side back to your own teammates, letting you score more and them score less. Also, if the robot could be short enough to drive under the pyramids, it could sort of camp under it and push opponents away before they have a chance to touch it. Just a strategy, we aren't using it though

This only works if your alliance has the ability to floor pick up, otherwise it becomes a somewhat worthless endeavor. Which, for the most part, appears to be a particularly rare ability, only outmatched in rareness by a 30pt climber.

And also, clamp under what and push what? Is that in reference to a frisbee? If yes then I would say that that is an incredibly strange scenario, and one likely to get your robot as trapped under the pyramid as the frisbee you're defending is. You're putting yourself in the very middle of an otherwise untouchable structure.

[JM033]

Originally Posted by xSAWxBLADEx

Why not have a net, and a strong robot?

How's your teams build coming along? Plan to climb?

[Donut]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion to see what everyone's thoughts are. Recent "full court shooter" videos are starting to pop up. No doubt alliances will want to send a defender to deal with them. What exactly will you tell this defender to do?

I'm worried about this. There aren't a lot of full court shooter videos out yet, but I've seen enough to be convinced that at least a handful of teams will pull off effective ones that could score 70+ points a match if left uncontested. But how do you defend them? Skillful driving is fine and dandy for robots that have to line up to shoot, but unless you can keep a full court shooter from their loading area for half the match all it does is delay the inevitable. A 15 second delay getting across the field once doesn't really stop them from unloading 45 frisbees into the goals.

The thing that compounds my concern is that it seems like many teams are building short robots to fit under the pyramid or hang, and there's not a huge incentive to build a tall robot since it hurts your CG. Outside of the handful of 30 point climbers I don't think many teams will see a reason to extend to 84 inches in their home zone, and without that ability a tall full court shooter is unblockable.

If we have the weight for it a simple piston to flip up a flexible flag/ski pole may be useful to block taller shooters like this if there is a need for it. And if the math works out that we're still not tall enough to block a shot... well I guess taking penalties for loading zone contact could be the lesser of 2 evils.

[xSAWxBLADEx]

Originally Posted by JM033

How's your teams build coming along? Plan to climb?

climb yes, shoot maybe...if we get time

[DampRobot]

I doubt many teams will shoot full court, as I have stated in the other thread. While I will admit that it is a whole lot easier to shoot full court than last year, I just don't think it will be an effective strategy.

We've seen in year after year that effective robots often get really close to the goal, especially when shooting is involved. 2012 saw many "fender bots" that nevertheless were extremely successful (971, among many other teams, specialized in close range shots). In 2006, many effective robots got on top of the ramp to shoot or even just dumped into the low goal. Lots of teams like to focus on long range shooting, and forget that the most accurate (and highest percentage) shots are those that are taken from close to the target.

How important will defense be? Very. Will there be many robots that try to block shots? I don't think so. We saw very few robots last year that actually tried to block shots, and I don't see them being a huge factor in 2013. It's hard to block other robots shots compared to keeping them from aligning in the first place. In 2012, effective defenders kept robots from getting to the fender, the place where they were most likely to make their shots. If a robot can keep other robots out of the area under the goals, they will be a lot more effective than a robot that tries to block shots simply by putting a net in front of other robots.