How Much Defense Can You Play?

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel quite sorry for the head refs this year. At least the reasonably astute observer has been fired.

From Q138 on the definition of consequential and purposeful

A. Consequential means the action has an effect on the outcome of the MATCH. Purposeful means the action was deemed intentional.

I can think of quite a few valid cases where it can be argued that contact is consequential. It is very easy to argue (truthfully) that someone playing defense and accidentally contacts you while you contact the pyramid slows you down and lowers your scoring. If the match was close that's consequential. Only one of the conditions need be fulfilled for the penalty to take place so even if the contact was accidental, it can still be ruled consequential.

And isn't the point of contact defense to be consequential on the match? If not why would anyone play it.

I suspect either head refs will be very unwilling to give out these sorts of penalties, letting defense run wild or will hand them out like there's no tomorrow. It very well may be regional dependent.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I can think of very few cases of where it can not be argued that contact is consequential.

Exactly. Protected zones are protected zones...

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Exactly. Protected zones are protected zones...

Precisely. I would be willing to bet a lot of teams will forget this and think consequential means only if they knock a robot off the tower. Note that there can be tech foul for contact in the loading zone (and as I said above, almost all contact can be argued consequential in a close match). I'll be telling our drivers, if playing defense, to steer as clear of there as possible to avoid any semblance of consequential contact.

[TheCrayButton]

My Team can shoot full court with our robot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzIke...er_profilepage

We are not to afraid of robots defending our long shots. There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Our first year in FIRST was 2011, and we had an all defense robot. All defenders have to do is just get in the way of other robots. They don't have to fully "block" them from the task at hand. With only 2mins, if defenders do this, they will win matches.

[JesseK]

This is the first year where an offensive robot can drive into the opponent alliance's protected zone without penalty as well (just don't actually touch the pyramid and you're fine). It totally opens up a whole new can of worms of rule subjectivity.

[45Auto]

There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Your robot appears to be shooting from very low. You don't think an opposing robot parked directly in front of you will interfere with your long range shot?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JesseK

This is the first year where an offensive robot can drive into the opponent alliance's protected zone without penalty as well (just don't actually touch the pyramid and you're fine). It totally opens up a whole new can of worms of rule subjectivity.

In 2012 there was nothing stopping a defending robot from driving through either the key or the bridge lane, as long as they didn't touch anyone.

I'm not afraid of full court shooters. Not one bit.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by TheCrayButton

My Team can shoot full court with our robot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzIke...er_profilepage

We are not to afraid of robots defending our long shots. There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Our first year in FIRST was 2011, and we had an all defense robot. All defenders have to do is just get in the way of other robots. They don't have to fully "block" them from the task at hand. With only 2mins, if defenders do this, they will win matches.

To be honest you guys have a very elegant shooter, but it is much easier to defend against than a team shooting from in front of the pyramid.

Long range/full court shooters will have great success during qualifications matches, but over lunch break before eliminations start, give me a pizza box and a piston and it might be game over.

And once someone does block your shot you would then have to find your way to a clear zone (probably your own pyramid or at least the half court line).

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

In 2012 there was nothing stopping a defending robot from driving through either the key or the bridge lane, as long as they didn't touch anyone.

Even that's not sufficiently true. We manhandled quite a few robots away from their key without incurring a penalty, because while we were touching their key, they weren't.

[TheCrayButton]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

To be honest you guys have a very elegant shooter, but it is much easier to defend against than a team shooting from in front of the pyramid.

Long range/full court shooters will have great success during qualifications matches, but over lunch break before eliminations start, give me a pizza box and a piston and it might be game over.

And once someone does block your shot you would then have to find your way to a clear zone (probably your own pyramid or at least the half court line).

Yes, this is very true! During finals and elimination's, they will find some way to block us. I have no doubt about that.

While our focus is shooting from full court, we can still shoot from anywhere. We have an adjustable angle we can shoot from. So therefore, we can be under the pyramid and still shoot 3's just fine.

[TheCrayButton]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

Your robot appears to be shooting from very low. You don't think an opposing robot parked directly in front of you will interfere with your long range shot?

Our robot will be shooting from about 32inch high. Yes that is very low and it can easily be blocked. But in qualifications, i can almost guarantee teams won't block our robot that much. We can sit there all day and shoot just fine. All the other teams will be worried about shooting themselves.

Last year, we were a purely offensive robot that dumped balls in the basket. In qualifications, we didn't get blocked at all. It it really is strange how that works.

Now, in finals we will be blocked, but that is why we can shoot from anywhere on the field. We have an adjustable angle.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by TheCrayButton

Our robot will be shooting from about 32inch high. Yes that is very low and it can easily be blocked. But in qualifications, i can almost guarantee teams won't block our robot that much. We can sit there all day and shoot just fine. All the other teams will be worried about shooting themselves.

Last year, we were a purely offensive robot that dumped balls in the basket. In qualifications, we didn't get blocked at all. It it really is strange how that works.

Now, in finals we will be blocked, but that is why we can shoot from anywhere on the field. We have an adjustable angle.

I think you will see that after you start shooting from full court that the other alliance will notice and come block you.

I see full court shooter being more like snipers, take the open shots from the feeder station when available, if not collect the 4 discs drive to the pyramid/your preferred shooting location, shoot your 4 discs, and repeat.

[NXTGeek]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

I doubt many teams will shoot full court, as I have stated in the other thread. While I will admit that it is a whole lot easier to shoot full court than last year, I just don't think it will be an effective strategy.

We've seen in year after year that effective robots often get really close to the goal, especially when shooting is involved. 2012 saw many "fender bots" that nevertheless were extremely successful (971, among many other teams, specialized in close range shots). In 2006, many effective robots got on top of the ramp to shoot or even just dumped into the low goal. Lots of teams like to focus on long range shooting, and forget that the most accurate (and highest percentage) shots are those that are taken from close to the target.

My opinion is that the successful teams of 2012 saw the limitations of the inconsistent foam basketballs and decided that in a game with barriers in the field and such that shooting from close and picking up from their own half of the field was the more effective strategy. Now won't those same teams see the opportunity to shoot a consistent game piece next to a protected stockpile of them as an opportunity they can't pass up?
The threshold of accuracy from those pitiful foam toys was too low for sniper shots, and basketballs could easily be transferred to the other side of the field by the human player. Do that same strategy this game, and you will suddenly be down an alliance robot, which is transferring frisbees across the field anyway.

[Jakester9999]

I believe that during qualifications there is going to be less defending! People will want to show what they can do, to try to get ranked number 1. . When it comes time for eliminations, the teams that actually showed during qualifications that they can defend, will have a better advantage of getting picked for an alliance then robots that tried shooting and were not as successful. Its going to be very interesting to see how many robots will defend this year. A good defense bot that can also make a 30 point climb rather fast may be more effective this year then a shooter bot.....

[TheCrayButton]

Originally Posted by Jakester9999

I believe that during qualifications there is going to be less defending! People will want to show what they can do, to try to get ranked number 1. . When it comes time for eliminations, the teams that actually showed during qualifications that they can defend, will have a better advantage of getting picked for an alliance then robots that tried shooting and were not as successful. Its going to be very interesting to see how many robots will defend this year. A good defense bot that can also make a 30 point climb rather fast may be more effective this year then a shooter bot.....

Exactly! I agree 100%. The defense robots will only show during finals. And any robot can play defense. In the finals, there will be good shooter robots that will play defense.

It will be interesting to see how many people actually "play" defense for their main strategy.