50 POINTS

[=Martin=Taylor=]

My prediction?

Both are important strategies, both in quals and elims.

It's the difference between scoring a lot of points fast vs. scoring a lot of points over a longer time. If you can pick up discs in autonomous and make 5 in the high goal, which is a lot more realistic this year compared to last (balls on the bridges). Most good shooters will be low to the ground and able to hp and floor collect, meaning that those additional white discs will be easy to get under the pyramid.

As people pointed out earlier, you can score a lot of points shooting +10pt hang.

Now consider the other strategy.

Usually by week three of the season someone has posted a video of their robot completing a game task. It is now week 4 and by my count this is one of perhaps only a handful of videos of a robot completing the task. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I understand it is an exceedingly difficult task and a lot of teams are still perfecting their systems. Most of the other designs I have seen have not inspired me with a lot of confidence.

As I'm sure a lot of people have realized, designing a 30 pt hanging mechanism is really difficult. It's probably gonna weigh a lot and take up a lot of space. So shooting ability might be compromised.

If you do pull off climb+dump and you do it quickly, like 15~20s, and you can score in auto +18 that's 68 points and it leaves most of the match open to focus on stopping the other alliance.

Assuming most good shooters are low to the ground and shoot at 45~30 so degrees it should be pretty easy for a tall 30pt climber to block them (especially if it has a net) without actually pushing them. Even more so if they are shooting from under the pyramid where they are protected.

It shouldn't be too hard to deny the other alliance at least 15 pts using defense. 2 out of 3 times a great shooter+10hang would probably beat a great hang+dump. But an average shooter+10hang? A great shooter+10hang vs. a hang+dump+auto?

If your team is capable of building a great shooter+30hang+auto+pickup then you probably shouldn't be stress'n bout winning

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor=

Assuming most good shooters are low to the ground and shoot at 45~30 so degrees it should be pretty easy for a tall 30pt climber to block them (especially if it has a net) without actually pushing them. Even more so if they are shooting from under the pyramid where they are protected.

As long as the discs exit the pyramid above the 60" rung you can't block them.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

As long as the discs exit the pyramid above the 60" rung you can't block them.

Well, lets just say I think your team is especially clever

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor=

Well, lets just say I think your team is especially clever

That's not my team's strategy, that would mean we were shooting from much to far away for our tastes. That's the strategy I think most "good" shooters will use.

[rsegrest]

Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor=

My prediction?
It is now week 4 and by my count this is one of perhaps only a handful of videos of a robot completing the task....
...As I'm sure a lot of people have realized, designing a 30 pt hanging mechanism is really difficult. It's probably gonna weigh a lot and take up a lot of space...

Agree completely...with one exception...not many have posted videos and partially because it is such a challenging task that many have steered clear from it (or maybe they are just playing their cards close to their vest calling Robonauts and Robotwranglers ). On the other hand heavy? Hmmmm...88lbs compared to the 119.7 we hit last year doesn't seem so heavy to us

[Peter Matteson]

If you can score 50pts by yourself you will be a top 5 robot at almost every regional/district event unless you have really bad scheduling in which case you will be a first round pick.

Most people will claim they can score 50 pts or better but very few will truely succeed. My belief is that less the 70% teams will even score 20 points more than once, yet people will fixate on what is possible by the top 5% and think that the round team XXX scored 80 points is reasonable or normal as they do every year.

What we always look at is what is theoretically possible, but the reality for most teams is far lower because it is hard to aim a shooter and many teams will have little if any stick time on their robots before their first/only regional so the driving will be a lower quality than the later events.

In their minds people always think of the elimination matches at later regionals/districts or the championship where many teams are on their second or third event and the caliber of play is far better, but your average qualification match is generally low scoring and pretty aweful to watch.

I would set the over under of the average robot at 15.5 points this year.

That said just climbing and dumping to get 50pts is not a Championship winning strategy. It will probably work at a week 1 or 2 regional at most but the strategy has too many flaws particullary if that is how you play every match.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

If you can score 50pts by yourself you will be a top 5 robot at almost every regional/district event unless you have really bad scheduling in which case you will be a first round pick.

Most people will claim they can score 50 pts or better but very few will truely succeed. My belief is that less the 70% teams will even score 20 points more than once, yet people will fixate on what is possible by the top 5% and think that the round team XXX scored 80 points is reasonable or normal as they do every year

...

I would set the over under of the average robot at 15.5 points this year.

That said just climbing and dumping to get 50pts is not a Championship winning strategy. It will probably work at a week 1 or 2 regional at most but the strategy has too many flaws particullary if that is how you play every match.

This! Why hasn't this received more attention! It's the best response out of this entire thread based upon my own experiences. And if you don't know, Peter's been to Einstein field more times than most teams have been to Regional Eliminations (every year, 2006-2011).

[Kellen Hill]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

If you can score 50pts by yourself you will be a top 5 robot at almost every regional/district event unless you have really bad scheduling in which case you will be a first round pick....

...That said just climbing and dumping to get 50pts is not a Championship winning strategy. It will probably work at a week 1 or 2 regional at most but the strategy has too many flaws particullary if that is how you play every match.

As many have mentioned, 50 point robots will be successful in regionals and should/will be picked relatively high in alliance selections if they are not captains.

I'm curious to see what division depth will look like at champs and where these 50 point robots might wind up in seedings and alliance selections in St Louis.

Climb time, defensive capabilities, autonomous modes, and ability to dump colored disks are all factors that will determine the overall contribution these robots might have at champs. Scouting will be crucial, especially with increased depth at a competition, to determine what robots are contributing the most points. While 50 points in the bag sounds nice, it may be a great defensive robot with a 10 point hang that makes a larger contribution to an alliance.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor=

If you do pull off climb+dump and you do it quickly, like 15~20s, and you can score in auto +18 that's 68 points and it leaves most of the match open to focus on stopping the other alliance.

I feel like this is entirely backwards. Any good 50 point climber will have a target on its back; defenders would do well to prioritize tying them up. You're not going to have much time to play defense yourself if you're up against good defenders ...and/or against 2 of them, which is not unlikely in quals as one opposition shooter scores and 2 defenders bog down the Climber and allied traffic. I know we'd be more than happy to trap a 50-point climber in one of the dead zones they'd want to move through, and I'd also be psyched to go head-to-head with 2 bogged down shooters while my allies play D.

In short, if you're a 50-point climber and want to play valuable defense as well (particularly in elims), you better start preparing yourself to be an actual defender. Unprepared robots on D is rough enough; doing it unprepared with a target on your back is nuts.


TL;DR: Seriously, climbers -- I know at least half a dozen teams at my first event alone who would be more than happy to make you spend the entire match just struggling to get to those colored disks and back to the pyramid.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Siri

TL;DR: Seriously, climbers -- I know at least half a dozen teams at my first event alone who would be more than happy to make you spend the entire match just struggling to get to those colored disks and back to the pyramid.

This, all of this.

Many people seem to forget, as we often do on CD, is that we are not all powerhouses, nor should every team aim to build a powerhouse robot. (Don't try to build beyond your means, etc.)

A team that fields a robot that scores 50 points in every match that it plays will, without a doubt, be in the upper middle tier at MOST regional and or district events. For those of you that haven't been following twentyfour, I suggest that you read into some of the posts.

To continue on with the 50pt discussion, if a team were to score 50pts by doing a Z3 climb, and then scoring 4 colored discs into the pyramid goal and do nothing else, this is what a robot would have to do in the same time to offset the points(assuming Z3 Climb and score has no auton):

- Score 2 Discs in Auton in the High goal, and score an additional 9 discs in the high goal during teleop along with a Z1 Climb.

- Score 2 Discs in Auton in the High goal, and score an additional 6 discs in the high goal during teleop along with a Z2 Climb.

- Score 2 Discs in Auton in the High goal, and score an additional 13 disks in the high goal without any climbing.

And the list goes on...

Notice how each of those alternate methods of scoring points rely on a few key things, notably autonomous scoring, the ability to reload at least THREE times during teleop and to be able to reliably climb. Using previous years as a guideline, I highly doubt 50% of teams will be able to do the above consistently.

Also, it's worth noting, that all of the above, assumes the Z3 Climb and Score Robot takes 2 minutes to do so. If they can get the total time down to 30 or even 45 seconds, they have more than half of the match to play defense - which, depending on how you look at it, is just as good as scoring points...

(PS: to the Z3 climb and dump teams, you can actually score 60 points with this method - if you're willing to take 6 foul points while doing it... Just sayin'.)

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by thefro526

(PS: to the Z3 climb and dump teams, you can actually score 60 points with this method - if you're willing to take 6 foul points while doing it... Just sayin'.)

I know you're kidding, but will people please stop considering this a viable strategy? It was a good laugh week 1 but I fear there are some teams seriously considering designing for this.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by CalTran

I know you're kidding, but will people please stop considering this a viable strategy? It was a good laugh week 1 but I fear there are some teams seriously considering designing for this.

It's not a joke. There is nothing wrong with taking a penalty for a net gain in points, unless the rules make intentional penalties a Yellow or Red card offense. The Q&A is somewhat ambiguous here...

[45Auto]

G24 and this Q&A seemed pretty clear to me.

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...it-of-the-game

[dcarr]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

G24 and this Q&A seemed pretty clear to me.

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...it-of-the-game

I wish they would address the specific case of carrying more than 4 colored discs with the intent of scoring in the Pyramid Goal, but that is probably to narrow of a situation to be answered directly in the Q&A.

It will be good to learn from teams who attempt this at week 1 regionals and see what the ramifications are, if any.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

G24 and this Q&A seemed pretty clear to me.

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...it-of-the-game

For me the ambiguity is in the phrase "may be". When is it and when isn't it?

This ambiguity and the very low reward of taking a penalty dissuaded my team from pursuing a six disc strategy. If one disc misses, it's not worth it. That doesn't' mean there's anything ethically wrong with it.