50 POINTS

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

G24 and this Q&A seemed pretty clear to me.

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...it-of-the-game

For me the ambiguity is in the phrase "may be". When is it and when isn't it?

This ambiguity and the very low reward of taking a penalty dissuaded my team from pursuing a six disc strategy. If one disc misses, it's not worth it. That doesn't' mean there's anything ethically wrong with it.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by sircedric4

We actually looked at what you are saying as an advantage in our calculations for our strategy. We figured a team that had an awesome frisbee shooting capability would have a huge target on their back. Now you can only carry 4 frisbees at a time and then have to get them from somewhere giving the other team a chance to defend you. You can also be defended while trying to shoot. Since you will be making many full field trips, there are many more chances for a team to keep your score down.

We built our robot short so it could drive under the pyramids and not have to worry about "dead zones" and we only have to make the trip across the field one time. A defender or two has to concentrate the entire game to not let us by, and which is easier, them getting lucky the whole match, or us getting lucky and across the field ONE time? The pinning rules and safe loading zones should easily allow one round trip. And we seriously hope you try and defend us when we are touching our pyramid since that awards a 30 pt climb automatically which will add to the 30 pt actual climb of the robot and 20 pt dump. (Our 50pt robot just became an 80 pt one)

I think any 30pt climber, 20 pt dumper will be difficult to just lock out of the entire match without occuring penalties or tying up 2 of the other teams robots. And those two robots defending are not scoring themselves still giving your alliance an advantage. It's a team game, and if my one robot focuses your attention so much that my other teammates can score enough to win then I still come out ahead.

That's just how we saw it when we did our strategy meetings. YMMV. :-)

Huh. First, it seems we have very different identifications of 'dead zones' and how to play defense. (Tying up a climber in no way distracts me from bogging down a shooter--actually it's kinda nice compared to some other options.) Granted, defenders you get in quals may not be as prepared, but at the same time I think you're overestimating the probability facing many qual alliances where all/most robots should be scoring for most of teleop. Playing extra D is does not disadvantage most qual alliance (if it's a disadvantage at all, it's just the schedule-based.)

I'm confused as to how you skipped from shooters 'can be defended while trying to shoot' to 'I hope you defend us while touching our pyramid'. Regardless, main scorers (at least as the game matures) shouldn't have to go anywhere particularly defensible to get disks, not even once. Of course, this goes both ways, so if you're ready you can flip the dynamic of the defense against you. Anyway, defending at the pyramid isn't just a terrible idea because it's illegal--if they waited that long, they should really be doing something else with their time anyway.

To clarify, I'm not saying a 50-point climb is a bad idea. We're designed as a 50 point climber. My point is that teams need to put significant thought into what they'll (intend) do the rest of the match, and how the opposing alliance will react. I expect prepared 50-pointers will be able to make the circuit in acceptable time, even under defense. Obviously we intend to do so. (Though as I said, I know a few defense specialists that'd just enjoy quals trying.) In elims, there aren't many situations where even trying to change that is useful. (Though there are some with qual-style carryover) On the contrary, I'd much rather make the opportunity cost of you doing any other significant play unacceptably high. That's what would need to be countered.


*I've never played in Louisiana

@Auto45, if you were kidding, I think you're missing a traffic option. (If not, well then yeah, basically.)

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by CalTran

I know you're kidding, but will people please stop considering this a viable strategy? It was a good laugh week 1 but I fear there are some teams seriously considering designing for this.

I wasn't kidding.

Intentionally taking a penalty in order to gain some sort of benefit is something that should always be kept in mind. In the 'real' world, decisions like this come up all of the time, take for instance delivering something behind schedule but increasing the quality - or taking the more expensive route while making something with the intent of never having to make it again. It's a life lesson.

In this case, taking 6 discs up the pyramid with you in an attempt to score a net 24 points instead of 20 exists in a grey area. The GDC clearly says that it 'may be' considered egregious behavior, which implies that the action is up to interpretation - so it could be legal at one event and not another, who knows?

Regardless, the rules are written in such a way that the intent seems to be to punish teams that consistently break a rule in order to gain some sort of strategic advantage. Odds are, if you're going to risk a net gain of 4 points by carrying two additional discs, you REALLY need those 4 points... I can't forsee this happening to often, but should you need them, it's good to know how to get them.

Anyway, it's not THAT hard to add an additional 2 discs of capacity to a system, especially if you're just doing a climb and dump. And who knows, that 2 discs of capacity might be the difference between going home with a banner and not.

(Also, yes, I am saying that there are some instances where it's okay to break rules in order to gain a strategic advantage when there is no harm done.)

[Orion.DeYoe]

Originally Posted by Djur

Well seeing as the ideal maximum points scored per alliance is

Auton: 9*6 + 6*6 = 90
Teleop: 45 * 3 + 6 * 5 = 165
Hanging: 30 * 3 = 90
Total: 315

Or an average 105 per robot, 50 per would not really be enough to beat powerhouse alliances in elimination matches, but likely more than enough for the randomly generated alliances in the qualification matches.

Hmmm interesting math. I realize this is the "IDEAL MAXIMUM" but let's look at this from a more geometrically and strategically realistic perspective.
To score 90 points in autonomous the alliance has to pick up 6 discs off of the floor. So on your first point (autonomous) the robot feature "floor pickup" is required.
Now taking a look at the few pictures/descriptions of 3rd level climbing mechanisms coupled with my (and other) team's brainstorming results, most 3rd level climbing mechanisms are mounted on the bottom of the robot (from front to back) or take up a huge portion of the top of the robot. Coincidentally the bottom of the robot is where a pickup mechanism needs to be mounted and the top is where a shooter needs to be mounted (there will be exceptions but this is a generalization). So, basically I'm saying that a robot will be able to achieve a 30 point climb AND be able to shoot OR pickup (they could dumb in the 1 point goal) but not all three.
That reduces the autonomous score hugely. You can have three robots that shoot 3s (6 points each) but can't pick up more, you have three robots that pick up all 15 available discs and dump them in the 1 point goal (2 points each), or some combination of the above. That gives you a range from 30-54 (approximately) points in autonomous mode.
Do I think there will be outliers that can do all three? Yes, I do. You could take a mechanism like 3847's and put a climber on it and have all three. I think someONE will do it. But the chances (much less the probability) of three such robots making it onto one alliance (in eliminations) are so astronomically huge that I wouldn't even consider it a possibility.
Now, using that model lets move on to teleop. I can't speculate as much here because this period of the game depends more on drivers, strategy, presence of defense, and other factors more than how your robot is built.
I think your figure is pretty accurate (I think three robots could score all 45 discs in the alliance station) except that I don't think three 3rd level climbers could do it.
Now all we have left is endgame. If you were to have three robots climb to the top level they would all need to climb on the outside of the pyramid (probably on the corners) which limits your options slightly. If you could have two or three robots up there then it wouldn't be a stretch to dump all six colored discs in the goal.
So my conclusion is that 315 points isn't possible for an alliance to score. I think we will see some teams score 100+ points by themselves, but the structure of the competition doesn't allow three such robots to function to their full potential on the same alliance. Also, to answer the original question, I think that you will be able to win a regional with 50 points per match, but I don't think you will be able to go anywhere at St Louis without some improvement. I think 50 points is getting close to where to need to be but not enough to go all the way.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

If you can score 50pts by yourself you will be a top 5 robot at almost every regional/district event unless you have really bad scheduling in which case you will be a first round pick.

Most people will claim they can score 50 pts or better but very few will truely succeed. My belief is that less the 70% teams will even score 20 points more than once, yet people will fixate on what is possible by the top 5% and think that the round team XXX scored 80 points is reasonable or normal as they do every year

...

I would set the over under of the average robot at 15.5 points this year.

That said just climbing and dumping to get 50pts is not a Championship winning strategy. It will probably work at a week 1 or 2 regional at most but the strategy has too many flaws particullary if that is how you play every match.

This! Why hasn't this received more attention! It's the best response out of this entire thread based upon my own experiences. And if you don't know, Peter's been to Einstein field more times than most teams have been to Regional Eliminations (every year, 2006-2011).

[Orion.DeYoe]

Originally Posted by CalTran

Won't be able to give a definitive answer until week one. Right now, I would say it's a close call. I would also have to know how you're scoring the 50 points.
If you're scoring it as most people assume, with a 30 point climb and 20 point dump, then I would say that it may not be enough. While most likely a consistent method of scoring, potentially has the issue of being capped at 50 points. Possibly more if you can dump in autonomous and during the match, but you'd be hard pressed to break 65-70 points per robot.
If you're scoring the 50 points by shooting and a 10 point hang, it may be better than a 50 point climb/dump. Reasoning: The 18 points in autonomous should be a given. As well, a 10 point hang should also be a given, especially with designs like Spectrum 3847's simple passive hanger. That leaves 22 points to be scored by a shooter. Which is three full hoppers of frisbees to the top goal. Entirely do able in a minute and thirty seconds. Why this is better: This robot would be easily improvable to surpass 50 points by either making more trips to the feeding station (Driving practice = ability to dodge defenders or ability to change drive ratio for faster drive train.) OR the ability to add a floor pick up system and VASTLY cut down on trip time whitch would easily make 4 or 5 full hoppers feasible.

TL;DR a 50 point shooter could be improved upon. A 50 point climber is essentially capped at 50 points. You won't know until competition whether 50 points is a lot or a little. You may get there and teams "bluffed" their accuracy in their videos. You may get there and find out that all the shooters are bats out of hell and dang accurate.

Excellent reasoning. My thoughts exactly. I don't have anything to add.

[Kellen Hill]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

If you can score 50pts by yourself you will be a top 5 robot at almost every regional/district event unless you have really bad scheduling in which case you will be a first round pick....

...That said just climbing and dumping to get 50pts is not a Championship winning strategy. It will probably work at a week 1 or 2 regional at most but the strategy has too many flaws particullary if that is how you play every match.

As many have mentioned, 50 point robots will be successful in regionals and should/will be picked relatively high in alliance selections if they are not captains.

I'm curious to see what division depth will look like at champs and where these 50 point robots might wind up in seedings and alliance selections in St Louis.

Climb time, defensive capabilities, autonomous modes, and ability to dump colored disks are all factors that will determine the overall contribution these robots might have at champs. Scouting will be crucial, especially with increased depth at a competition, to determine what robots are contributing the most points. While 50 points in the bag sounds nice, it may be a great defensive robot with a 10 point hang that makes a larger contribution to an alliance.