FIRST Choice is Profoundly Flawed

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

But I will say that waiting until 2 months after a store declares open season on their stock and then complaining there is nothing left that's edible is just plain silly.

A hundred times this. At least use the already existing threads if you want to voice your concerns. Don't teams have other things they should be doing right now other than complaining on here about FIRST Choice? Taylor wasn't being rude, he was asking a legitimate question.

[PiltdownMan]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

The more important line in Taylor's response is one you seem to have conveniently ignored.



Now, I happen to agree that FC is flawed. But it's a step in the right direction from the gross waste of the past 2 decades. It needs some work. But, the fact is I have several thousand dollars worth of stuff from the last 16 KOP that will probably never be used by us. I wish it could have gone to teams that needed it rather than sit and take up storage space but the fact is cataloging and distributing it is not cost effective at this point in time for us.

Am I defending the fact that FC doesn't seem to benefit the very teams that need the resources most? No. But I will say that waiting until 2 months after a store declares open season on their stock and then complaining there is nothing left that's edible is just plain silly.



And I'm going to address the fact that money is a big factor. If you are planning on building a robot on just your KoP money grant you are doing it wrong. FIRST is not simply something we do 6 weeks out of the year. Fundraising and outreach are a year round thing. You see teams with these big corporate sponsors and lots of machining ability and we are all jealous. But you know what? They weren't just handed that. I suggest pinging Adam Heard, I know he and 973 worked their rear ends off for everything they have and it might be a good lesson in hard work paying dividends.

I see you share Taylors same affliction, Mr. Schreiber...the casual rudeness and cruelty that is the right and of every Internet denizen. Thank you for giving your reply context early.

The reason I didn't address his flip and loutish remark was because what I said was that I still had 100 points left. I saw no point in addressing a flawed set assumptions based on a careless reading. But to clarify, since explicit would seem to be required for some.

I spent the first set of points immediately and still couldn't get a lot of what we would have preferred. As for the second set, between technical issues and personal obligations I was not able to get back FC till 24 hours after the inital opening. It seems a reasonable amount time to me even now. After that 24 hours there was nothing left except what which would at best be only vaguely useful.

You state that you see FC as flawed as well but you focus not on solutions but rather on correcting me for errors based on hastily drawn conclusions and imagined character flaws. Not helpful, sir.

[Doug G]

I don't think it is that flawed.. What is flawed is many folks understanding of what FIRST Choice really is... I so much enjoy a kickoff without the crate of stuff we won't use. I know this is an issue for more veteran teams, but I still have buckets of old drill motors (and cases), FP transmissions, etc... I am glad that I don't receive this anymore and that stuff like it end up on FC for another team to use.

I did appreciate the FC items we picked up this year... the new right angle drill, multimeter, extra C-Rio, compressor, etc... I thought it worked pretty well. Anyone want to exchange 14 plastic FP transmissions for ... well... anything?

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

. But I will say that waiting until 2 months after a store declares open season on their stock and then complaining there is nothing left that's edible is just plain silly.

To be fair, there's no practical difference between ordering two months in and ordering at 12:30pm on opening day. The most useful items, like batteries, Crios, classmates, speed controllers etc. are all gone by then. You're left with a lot of items that aren't very useful and just as expensive in terms of points.

FIRST choice serves teams who have good network luck and someone with nothing else to do in the middle of the day. It's not even really First come/first serve, it's first to not experience a network error/first serve.

There are a lot of things FIRST could do to change the situation. I hope they do any one of them, because it'd be an improvement.

[PiltdownMan]

I appreciate the feedback. We too receive lots of stuff we don't need. I am not sure what the fix for that is. Unfortunately, much of what is moved to FC is exactly the stuff I would want year in and year out. I am always going to need controllers and so on.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by PiltdownMan

I see you share Taylors same affliction, Mr. Schreiber...the casual rudeness and cruelty that is the right and of every Internet denizen. Thank you for giving your reply context early.

The reason I didn't address his flip and loutish remark was because what I said was that I still had 100 points left. I saw no point in addressing a flawed set assumptions based on a careless reading. But to clarify, since explicit would seem to be required for some.

I spent the first set of points immediately and still couldn't get a lot of what we would have preferred. As for the second set, between technical issues and personal obligations I was not able to get back FC till 24 hours after the inital opening. It seems a reasonable amount time to me even now. After that 24 hours there was nothing left except what which would at best be only vaguely useful.

You state that you see FC as flawed as well but you focus not on solutions but rather on correcting me for errors based on hastily drawn conclusions and imagined character flaws. Not helpful, sir.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh....php?p=1200883 I did focus on solutions. 2 months ago. When this system came out. Sadly due to the sheer amount of time I give to this program I have been unable to run a simulation of FIRST Choice using different algorithms for distribution. It's on my todo list though, I'll probably not get to it until after I bag my robot.

If you want to talk about FC being broken and unfair...

Did you know that if you had a team number under 1000 you couldn't log in for the first 30 minutes? At which point a good chunk of things were ALREADY gone. You'll take note that I mentor a team that happens to have 2 digits. Perhaps you weren't the only one negatively impacted by this system. But unlike you, who appears to be merely want a sounding board for your negativity, many of us spent a good chunk of time trying to figure out possible solutions for next year.

Here's a suggestion, sitting here griping about stuff and lambasting a system without offering solutions is not productive. And outright insulting people who agree with you on the majority of your comments is far more foolish than I'd expect out of someone who has been around this program for a few years. Let's take a breath and focus on solutions. Anger and insults never solved any problem.

[Patrick Flynn]

Originally Posted by PiltdownMan

Unfortunately, much of what is moved to FC is exactly the stuff I would want year in and year out.

I think your missing something about FC, all the items are donated free of charge to FIRST they don't chose to "move" these items here they place the donated items here. And only the quantities that are donated. In the past if a company was only able to donate 100 of an item FIRST wouldn't be able to pass it on to teams because they couldn't donate enough for even every rookie team to get one.

I agree there are flaws but I'd rather have the option for some free stuff even if it seems worthless, you never know when you'll need that left handed screw driver, than the other option of FIRST turning it away.
Bottom line this stuff is donated for free. I'll take whatever I can get.

[PiltdownMan]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

The more important line in Taylor's response is one you seem to have conveniently ignored.



Now, I happen to agree that FC is flawed. But it's a step in the right direction from the gross waste of the past 2 decades. It needs some work. But, the fact is I have several thousand dollars worth of stuff from the last 16 KOP that will probably never be used by us. I wish it could have gone to teams that needed it rather than sit and take up storage space but the fact is cataloging and distributing it is not cost effective at this point in time for us.

Am I defending the fact that FC doesn't seem to benefit the very teams that need the resources most? No. But I will say that waiting until 2 months after a store declares open season on their stock and then complaining there is nothing left that's edible is just plain silly.



And I'm going to address the fact that money is a big factor. If you are planning on building a robot on just your KoP money grant you are doing it wrong. FIRST is not simply something we do 6 weeks out of the year. Fundraising and outreach are a year round thing. You see teams with these big corporate sponsors and lots of machining ability and we are all jealous. But you know what? They weren't just handed that. I suggest pinging Adam Heard, I know he and 973 worked their rear ends off for everything they have and it might be a good lesson in hard work paying dividends.

Again, you should go look at what I actually said and examine your assumptions.

[LeelandS]

I think some argument is starting to be bred out of how things are being said, something that tends to derail good discussion and exchange of ideas. The topic of the thread is to discuss FIRST Choice and the flaws it currently holds. Let's try not to tear apart each other's arguments, okay? *steps off soap box*

FIRST Choice may or may not be flawed depending on how you view it as a whole. I, personally, view FC as a bonus. Not something teams are entitled to, or something that should be distributed to teams in need, but a bonus to stack on the work teams have already done for fundraising. Yes, it does provide a lovely benefit to low-resource teams so they can focus their funding on other essential parts. But at the end of the day, low resource teams existed before FIRST Choice, and, if FIRST Choice ever ends, they will exist after. It's like... Um. It's not really frosting on the cake. But it's like, getting a piece of cake with frosting, and FIRST Choice is the sprinkles. So, because I view FIRST Choice like this, I don't find the system to be flawed at all. It's first come, first serve. It doesn't really get much more fair than that, to me. The items are all donated items. And FIRST is making use of those donated items by giving teams a chance to grab them.

I definitely see how some focus on the benefit it provides to rookie and other lower resource teams. I'm not really smart enough to come up with a system that treats all the teams fairly, so I can't provide too much discussion for how we resolve this. But it does seem a bit unfair that these donated items are going to teams who are less in need. But in the end, every team has the same chance to get them. It's not like veterans got a special password to access FC early. I'm not much of a shopper, so the concept of people camping, waiting for FC to open is a little over my head. But it ended up being a race, and people got what they could. There's not much else I can say. If a team missed out because they couldn't get there in time, I can't say I find it unfair. But I would if I was focused on FC being more important as a boost for low resource teams.

I can only find two things FIRST can do to make FC more fair. They either raise their stock, or lower the points each team is given. And since FIRST can't control the stock of donated items, adjusting prices and lowering the amount of points given seems to be the most logical course of action, at least in my eyes.

[sabruce01]

In December, the useful items were gone within hours. By Jan 5th, most items were gone. It's not like we are trying to order now. I agree on the FP transmissions and all the other items not used in the past, but lets be honest.....the KOP is pretty sad. With the FC the way it is, many teams simply have to pony up extra money or do without. OR take off work, sit at a computer at a certain time in December and take a guess at what they will be needing for the next season. One other thing folks, many speak of all the items being "donated", and they are, but they were also donated back when we received two crates and a couple of boxes in the KOP. It's not like they started the FC because items were being donated. I spoke with AndyMark about FC and got the same answer...."only so much was donated and when it's gone, it's gone". My problem is when teams post pictures of obtaining 12 or 15 of a certain item that is now "gone" and my team needs only one.....we have to buy it. Did they really need 15 of that specific item.....probably not.......

[lemiant]

Originally Posted by sabruce01

My problem is when teams post pictures of obtaining 12 or 15 of a certain item that is now "gone" and my team needs only one.....we have to buy it. Did they really need 15 of that specific item.....probably not.......

I cannot, personally, remember ever seeing a picture like this. Care to provide a link?

[sabruce01]

Originally Posted by lemiant

I cannot, personally, remember ever seeing a picture like this. Care to provide a link?

Gladly! BTW....my mistake...they received 18 TALONS!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...28#post1211528

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by sabruce01

Gladly! BTW....my mistake...they received 18 TALONS!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...28#post1211528

That is showing two teams worth of components.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by sabruce01

Gladly! BTW....my mistake...they received 18 TALONS!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...28#post1211528

If you will note from the linked posts in that thread, those Talons are shared between 2 teams. 9 speed controllers to a team is actually quite reasonable in any given year: 4 on drive, 3 for other motors that require variable speed, and 2 spares/extra motors because the Talons are at this point beta tested but haven't exactly gone through a full FRC season with lots of them out there. This year, that might even translate to 6 on drive, 2 for climbing, 1 spare/shooter.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by PiltdownMan

I see you share Taylors same affliction, Mr. Schreiber...the casual rudeness and cruelty that is the right and of every Internet denizen. Thank you for giving your reply context early.

The reason I didn't address his flip and loutish remark was because what I said was that I still had 100 points left. I saw no point in addressing a flawed set assumptions based on a careless reading. But to clarify, since explicit would seem to be required for some.

You clearly can't tell the difference with someone not sharing your opinions and someone being rude to you. Both Taylor's and Andrew's responses were reasonable and constructive. Maybe if you spent less time trying to make someone else the "bad guy," being rude in the process, and actually addressing the issue at hand as opposed to getting into petty arguments that you couldn't possibly ever win, you might receive more sympathy and ideas to the problem you posted.