Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day

[Keefe2471]

I think he was saying the opposite actually. That the GDC should have antipated our anticipation

On a more personal note this is an awful time to change the game. A more specialized net should have been the first thing attempted. Although the size of these nets has been concerning me the entire season, this response seems "nuclear" in the magnitude it affects the game.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by nicholsjj

Should teams have not have had the foresight then that this would occur or were we the only team to?

Honestly? No. I knew this part of the game was potentially dangerous. However, I assumed that FIRST had taken steps to mitigate this danger. I assumed that the people who design these games had learned from past games (2012, 2007, and 2006 come to mind).

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

I beg to differ. We couldn't pick pieces up from the floor in 2006 and did pretty well for ourselves.

Team 25 had an awesome robot in 2006. Their robot's success formed a large part of our decision not to bother to pick up from the floor this year. I still believe a good 30 point climber, executed correctly, is a lot more advantageous than a floor pickup.

It's really too bad that the GDC chose to change rules this drastically this late in the game. I really have a hard time believing that they didn't even think that human players would try to throw game pieces when they were allowed to. Teams with a floor pickup have every right to be upset. They would do well to remember though that there will be other frisbees on the ground...

Looking on the bright side, I foresaw a lot of robots would be crippled due to driving over frisbees in the last 30 seconds of the game. This should make it less of a problem.

[Anupam Goli]

I know I anticipated the blizzard, but I still feel like floor pickups will be useful, especially for missed shots. Perhaps now climbing is more weighted without the blizzard, so I'm expecting maybe for climbing points to be changed at championships.

[Drivencrazy]

Just to echo everyone else on this thread, I can't believe they didn't see that one coming. I thought at the beginning of the season that even with the nets we would see way more game pieces fly off the field than ever before and I even underestimated how many would be flying around based on my observation of week 0.

As for changing things this late in the season I can see both sides of the story. Yes it sucks. There is no denying it. Especially because it seemed so blatantly obvious that this would happen. And it sucks that it happened so late in the season. Remind anyone else of last year's troll bot?

On the other hand I understand why they did it. Let's face it, a lot of people who build robots aren't the most coordinated people in the world and even the most athletically inclined among us will make a bad toss every once in a while. It only takes one bad hammer to get someone hurt and I know that everyone in FIRST is concerned with people's safety.

I'm sorry for all the teams this has hurt. If I know anything I know that FIRST teams always find a way to make magic happen.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Drivencrazy

On the other hand I understand why they did it. Let's face it, a lot of people who build robots aren't the most coordinated people in the world and even the most athletically inclined among us will make a bad toss every once in a while. It only takes one bad hammer to get someone hurt and I know that everyone in FIRST is concerned with people's safety.

Just to be clear, I'm not upset about the rule change. In fact, I applaud the GDC for having the courage to make this safety critical change. I'm mad they were foolish enough not to realize that it'd be a problem initially.

[topgun]

Floor Pickup will still be valuable for autonomous for those teams going for a 7 disc autonomous. The extra four discs can still add 24 points.

I think it raises the value of those robots with less than accurate long shooters as a potential alliance pick. They will be able to rain in the discs if needed for an accurate floor feeder.

Floor feeders can still pickup at the feeding stations though it does add the trip time to their cycle time.

I see the floor feeders as still more versatile than feeder station only robots.

Having said all that, a bag day rule change that affects a team's choice of strategy still hurts.

[Bob Steele]

The rule is changed.... we move on...

I do think that perhaps another change might be in order to at least give credence to the teams that were counting on frisbees the last 30 seconds and designed around that contingency.

Perhaps either the game could start with more frisbees on the field? perhaps 8 more on each side...along the walls.... this would allow a team to use those during the last 30 seconds...

Or, perhaps a better approach would be for 8 or some other number of frisbees to be tossed in from the side of the field by the resetters...

This would allow for better safety and still allow teams that planned on picking up frisbees during the end game to have them available.

I am not sure how this could be implemented but I think it could be done easily... especially starting with more on the floor. put four on each side of the center line against the wall.... for a total of 16 extra frisbees....8 each side.

Just a thought... trying to make it better for those teams that feel they have had their strategies compromised....

Good luck to all on the field...

[DonRotolo]

Ya know...sometimes, design specs get changed at the last second. Or the market changes while you weren't watching. It Happens.

I have to agree that safety comes first.

And remember this: What may be obvious to you will be a surprise to someone else.

I am very confident that the GDC put a huge amount of thought and effort into the game. Mistakes happen. They did say they were sorry. Sure, I wish I was part of the GDC, so I could've pointed this out...but even odds are that I'd have missed it too.

So, onward!

[Tuba4]

Originally Posted by dag0620

I do also understand that many people would assume we would improve the nets. However at this point the next step to protect spectators would be nets hanging from the ceiling of the venue, and there's just too many variables, expense, and hastle to make that happen

I am not sure what the variables really would be. You already have one or more lifts and riggers to hang lighting systems, PA systems and curtains from the ceiling. Longer netting should be all that would be needed.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

You may be right and I may be wrong.

Your team consistently builds clever and effective robots.

I would be amazed by a 10 second cycle.

One solution may be to ask a weak shooting partner to load and shoot from across the field, that way, you would have a constant supply for more than just the last 30 seconds.

Was your team able to solve the upside down frisbee pickup problem?

With no defense, we can do 4 made shots with a complete round trip from the feeder station in 12 seconds.
With an effective floor feeder around/near the pyramid with tons of frisbees on the ground as a result of human throwing error, I see that as very possible.

Many teams have made shooters that can unload all of their frisbees in protected zones around/under the pyramid in the low 1.X second range.

I just saw another team in Hawaii showcase all 4 frisbees in less than 1 second.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Tuba4

I am not sure what the variables really would be. You already have one or more lifts and riggers to hang lighting systems, PA systems and curtains from the ceiling. Longer netting should be all that would be needed.

Plus more rigging, plus the extra labor for rigging those nets, plus all the many, many district events that DON'T have lifts, riggers, and lighting systems. There's a reason that the current nets are supported by freestanding steel frames.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Team 25 had an awesome robot in 2006. Their robot's success formed a large part of our decision not to bother to pick up from the floor this year. I still believe a good 30 point climber, executed correctly, is a lot more advantageous than a floor pickup.

It's really too bad that the GDC chose to change rules this drastically this late in the game. I really have a hard time believing that they didn't even think that human players would try to throw game pieces when they were allowed to. Teams with a floor pickup have every right to be upset. They would do well to remember though that there will be other frisbees on the ground...

Looking on the bright side, I foresaw a lot of robots would be crippled due to driving over frisbees in the last 30 seconds of the game. This should make it less of a problem.

I respectfully disagree to an extent.
From the videos posted on CD so far, none/very few if any, posted times of less than 30 seconds.
30 seconds is enough time for many teams to make 2 trips to the feeder station to unload 8 discs and hang from the 10 pointer to effectively beat the high hang.

[1493kd]

We are much faster loading from the floor then driving to the feeder station and I am not to worried about this rule change. I was worried about damage to bots from the Frisbee storm at the end and I think there will be a good amount of them on the floor for us to still pick up. I

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by SM987

Given that it's stop build day, I haven't seen anyone overreact. That said, this is a minor plus for climbers and a minor bummer for floor loaders. I don't see it being a huge issue in anything but the highest level of competition.

This just about sums it up.

At the highest level at competitions.....i.e. playoffs, regional finals, Einstein, etc. it will make a big difference.