Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day

[notmattlythgoe]

Perhaps a better fix would have been to allow human players to throw discs around the side of the feeder stations instead of over the top. That would most likely reduce the number of discs leaving the field.

[QuackAttack177]

Originally Posted by dodar

Actually, ignoring it would have been FIRST doing nothing.

Your right, this is more like them covering up the problem instead of ignoring it. Thanks for the clarification!

[dodar]

Originally Posted by QuackAttack177

Your right, this is more like them covering up the problem instead of ignoring it. Thanks for the clarification!

Ya, kind of like instead of cleaning their clothes they just threw them away.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by QuackAttack177

I was a human player at the Suffeild Scrimmage for team 177, and it was one of, if the best moment of my robotics experience. Over the course of a day I hit a total of 11 shots with my highest score in a single match being eight, (two three pointers and one two pointer) FIRST took all of the fun out of being a human player, while simultaneously ruining many teams overall strategy of relying on the discs of blizzard time. I am disappointed not only of the shortsightedness of FIRST (I mean what did you expect?) but also how poorly they responded to this problem. Instead of finding a rational solution that wouldn't change the overall flow and style of the game, the instead decided to cut out and ignore the problem all together. Great life lesson FIRST, if you don't want to deal with a problem just ignore it and everything will be better.

hmm, i'm not so sure to call it "ignoring a problem' the problem in this case was the potential safety hazard of the crew and the equipment from flying discs. following this train of logic, ignoring the issue would've been to not have any crew or field equipment. Instead, they reduced the safety hazards (in this case the flying discs).

[QuackAttack177]

Originally Posted by Wing

hmm, i'm not so sure to call it "ignoring a problem' the problem in this case was the potential safety hazard of the crew and the equipment from flying discs. following this train of logic, ignoring the issue would've been to not have any crew or field equipment. Instead, they reduced the safety hazards (in this case the flying discs).

You are right, that was miss worded on my part, it really is more like them covering up the problem instead of dealing with it would be a more accurate statement.

[artdutra04]

Preface: I spent a large portion of the build season out of the country, so this is the least involved I have been in FRC in quite a few years.


One of the things that people here on Chief Delphi always ask for, is that FIRST should be more open and transparent with their decisions. And in regards to this, I would like to commend FIRST for this Team Update.

As outlined in the blog post, they did not anticipate the blizzard of discs thrown in the last thirty seconds; and as soon as they became aware of such occurring at Week 0 scrimmages, they quickly moved to improve the safety for everyone at an event and released a team update three days later. Their blog post very clearly laid out what they viewed as a problem and their course of actions to rectify it, and provided about as much transparency as is possible in a situation such as this.

While such a fast turnaround correction is to be commended, the timing of the update (hours before bag-n-tag deadline) likely contributed to the tsunami of pent-up, build-season stress and angst that was vented in this thread*.

Once everyone takes a few days to recuperate and regain lost sleep and look at this change from a big picture standpoint, I believe they will see that this does not drastically alter any portion of the game, and nor does it make any teams robots invalidated. IMHO, this game is probably the best game since 2004 to have all kinds of strategic checks-and-balances, which makes me very excited for the competition season.


* At this point in the season, I am sure that any change to the manual would cause outrage in the FRC community. They could release an update saying they were going to give every team free puppies and kittens, and many teams would vehemently complain this change was too late to budget dry kibbles into their budget.

[techvikesmom]

Soooo.... humans throwing discs over the player station at a target 54 feet away is a greater safety hazard than a 28" tall robot launching a disk using a flywheel spinning at 5000+ rpm? Huh?

AGREED!!
OR a possible 120 pound robot falling 60"???

Again, frisbee throwing change affects us and many other teams. This is my 4th year with FIRST and every year these updates/rule changes are very frustrating. Every year we feel that our strategy plan is challenged by these changes and we do get pass the "initial shock" of the changes.

I also want to say this program has changed our son and our students' lives to the better to what we have exposed them too.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

* At this point in the season, I am sure that any change to the manual would cause outrage in the FRC community. They could release an update saying they were going to give every team free puppies and kittens, and many teams would vehemently complain this change was too late to budget dry kibbles into their budget.

Surely you'd get more complaints about the already excessive numbers of dogs and cats in the country and the large numbers of unwanted pets languishing in animal shelters.

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Their blog post very clearly laid out what they viewed as a problem and their course of actions to rectify it, and provided about as much transparency as is possible in a situation such as this.

Art,

I disagree. If discs being hurled across the field at high velocity is a hazard then the entire game is hazardous. I still do not see what the ACTUAL danger is here. Was someone injured? Close call?

What problem is this fixing?

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

At this point in the season, I am sure that any change to the manual would cause outrage in the FRC community. They could release an update saying they were going to give every team free puppies and kittens, and many teams would vehemently complain this change was too late to budget dry kibbles into their budget.

No, we would only complain if FIRST choice ran out of puppies

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Mike Copioli

No, we would only complain if FIRST choice ran out of puppies

Since when could puppies handle 60A of continuous current?

[QuackAttack177]

Originally Posted by techvikesmom

Soooo.... humans throwing discs over the player station at a target 54 feet away is a greater safety hazard than a 28" tall robot launching a disk using a flywheel spinning at 5000+ rpm? Huh?

AGREED!!
OR a possible 120 pound robot falling 60"???

Again, frisbee throwing change affects us and many other teams. This is my 4th year with FIRST and every year these updates/rule changes are very frustrating. Every year we feel that our strategy plan is challenged by these changes and we do get pass the "initial shock" of the changes.

I also want to say this program has changed our son and our students' lives to the better to what we have exposed them too.

I agree completely. When the first robot falls and hurts someone (hopefully never, but there is always the possibility) are they just going to get rid of climbing? I doubt it. They will find a SOLUTION to the problem. I see no reason why they cant do the same for the problem they face now.

[Jay Trzaskos]

Let me start by saying that I feel awful for the human players who might feel that they are now unable to actively affect their teams’ success during the match, and cannot show off a skill set that they have been working on over the past 6 weeks.

But for some perspective, I’m 6’4” and played competitive ultimate in college for multiple years. I haven't spent any time throwing discs full field this year, but last night I tried putting 30 seconds on the clock to see how many backhands I could throw (rapid fire) that distance. I stopped after about 10 seconds and 12-15 discs because I only managed to get 2 to stay in the field. I entirely understand the GDC’s decision to limit the number of discs haphazardly attempting to enter the field in the last 30 seconds.

Now, I understand that some teams have been planning and practicing with specific throws that fit their floor pick-up strategy. I know that if I had done hammer throws my percentage would have increased, but I was operating under the assumption that teams would prefer to have the discs landing right side up, effectively voiding the effectiveness of that throw. My throws also may not have been from an optimum position behind the drivers station.

You have to look beyond the scope of how this affects one quarter of your teams match. You have, minimum, 8 days to rethink your strategy for competition. Take the time to sleep on it, look at the broader issue. Your HP may be able to hit his throw with some degree of accuracy, but what about the other 5 (over-zealous) students out their hucking discs as hard as they can and hoping they hit something.

I believe that the GDC expected some amount of discs to leave the field during the last 30 seconds, what I don't believe is that they should have expected the reckless abandon with which some teams would throw them. I especially don't believe that they expected students to be throwing the discs without even looking at the field. There is certainly no reason that any robot or human player should be launching discs above the drivers station wall either. Unless you have done almost nothing to control the accuracy of your shooter.

We have all been focused on our robots and our strategies for 6 weeks straight, now take some time to truly look at the game as a whole and decide for yourself if, over the full spectrum of teams competing, you think this change is so incredibly unfair of the GDC to make? We’re trying to draw people into our community by focusing on our actions and our attitude, there isn’t a whole lot going on in this thread that speaks positively about either of those attributes. All design is an iterative process; the GDC iterated the game design in order to fix a specific and unforeseen safety issue. Please move past this and start thinking about how you can iterate your match strategy and adapt to fit this change.

[PVCpirate]

I think it's just too hard for a referee or spectator at field level to keep track of all the different frisbees coming from the human players in all 4 corners of the field. This way, all the frisbees are being launched by robots on the field, so it's easier to see the where the shots are coming from.

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by Mike Copioli

Art,

I disagree. If discs being hurled across the field at high velocity is a hazard then the entire game is hazardous. I still do not see what the ACTUAL danger is here. Was someone injured? Close call?

What problem is this fixing?

Mike, the successful shots from the Human Players were with a "hammer throw". It is different from a frisbee launched by a 5000 rpm spinning wheel in that it has a much higher translational velocity.

These hammer throws were traveling TWICE the distance of the field. Spectators on the ends of the field are already at a viewing disadvantage due to the goals this year, which really block the view of the gameplay.
They would not see it the disk coming at them and could easily suffer facial contusions. (the term that a lawyer would use when suing FIRST)
I was at the Suffield Shakedown and witnessed more than a few spectators sitting at the ends of the field "bonked" by a disk.

The public has not signed (nor electronically submitted ) a Consent and Release form. While an injury and attendant lawsuit at a FIRST Robotics Competition would increase our media presence, it is an unacceptable risk.

Placing more netting at the ends of the field is not impossible, but more problematic given the less than two weeks until the season begins and the variety of venues at which the events are held.

A better solution may have been to allow the human players to throw around the feeder stations and disallowing the hammer throw. Spectators and human players would be more familiar with that style.
The GDC does not have the luxury of assessing this adjustment, so they erred on the side of safety. (As we all try to.)

Nonetheless, "what's done cannot be undone" ~Shakespeare.

Or can it? ~Mooretep