Is Bag and Tag Necessary?

[Undertones]

FIRST is trying to mirror real life situations. If you have a deadline, you work to complete by the deadline, and find ways to work around it (practice robots). This ties into the whole "there are two types of underprivileged teams; the ones who whine about being underprivileged and the ones that work to become privileged". Bag and tag is an integral part of FIRST. It will always be around.

[Brandon_L]

smart/modular design doesn't hurt-

We designed about 80% of our robot into one device (the last 20% being the drivetrain). Total weight of said device: 27.8 pounds. The only thing we bagged this year was a drivetrain and a bit of a frame, we have a few more weeks to perfect everything else. No practice robot needed (although we did build half of a second frame that we mounted to a wooden drive with no motors)

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

smart/modular design doesn't hurt-

This. Our shooter can come off by loosening two brackets. Although we didn't really plan for modular design, the ability to take off the shooter (weighing 12 lbs) helps considerably. If you want to practice with say, a shooter and you don't have the funds for a full second robot, being able to withhold the major part and place it on say, a kitbot can bring you pretty close to a practice bot in results.

[Brian Selle]

Originally Posted by Undertones

FIRST is trying to mirror real life situations. If you have a deadline, you work to complete by the deadline, and find ways to work around it (practice robots). This ties into the whole "there are two types of underprivileged teams; the ones who whine about being underprivileged and the ones that work to become privileged". Bag and tag is an integral part of FIRST. It will always be around.

The point is that stop build is not really a deadline (only for those that can't afford it). The only thing real-life about it is that people have figured out a way around it. Underprivileged, privileged... not sure how that fits in the FIRST mission. After figuring out how important it is we fund and build 2 robots... it just seems unnecessary.

[Lil' Lavery]

If they get rid of "stop build" day, I'm never signing up for another event before week 4. Nor will I do much beyond prototyping until I see how the game plays out and what designs other teams have come up with.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

If they get rid of "stop build" day, I'm never signing up for another event before week 4. Nor will I do much beyond prototyping until I see how the game plays out and what designs other teams have come up with.

This.

[Grim Tuesday]

I think to summarize what Akash and Lil Lavery are saying, in the current system, Stop Build Day is the end of the design process for good/mediocore teams and a definite design freeze for even the very best.

[kiasam111]

One of the things that we have improved on this year is upping our driver training. As the operator last year, the drive team basically drove on bag and tag night, then drove at the regional (Orlando).

For this reason, it is essential for us to be building a second robot, so that we can continue to train our drivers.

[DjMaddius]

Originally Posted by kiasam111

One of the things that we have improved on this year is upping our driver training. As the operator last year, the drive team basically drove on bag and tag night, then drove at the regional (Orlando).

For this reason, it is essential for us to be building a second robot, so that we can continue to train our drivers.

Our drivers (me being one) haven't gotten a single 'practice' day in years. We don't have time, we build until we are at competition most of the time. Forcing a huge learning curve on me and other drivers at competition.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I think to summarize what Akash and Lil Lavery are saying, in the current system, Stop Build Day is the end of the design process for good/mediocore teams and a definite design freeze for even the very best.

That's not what I was saying. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

That's not what I was saying. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

Same actually, no offense.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

That's not what I was saying. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Same actually, no offense.

Please accept my apologies, I did not intend to offend. I should have said "after reading Lavery's and Akash's post, I think." Again, I'm really sorry. I would edit/delete my post but Chief Delphi has that pesky limit on shutting down the edit button.

I maintain my position though. For the very best teams, bag day is the point where no major design changes can be made (except for Pink). The design is, within reason, "locked in" but subject to any numbers of tweaks and improvements.

To a team on the level of my team, bag day is when the design process has to end as we have no practice bot and as I described in an earlier post, limited resources post-season. Would making one bring us to a new level? Yes. Can we make one? Maybe. Hopefully next year we will take on that challenge.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by btslaser

The point is that stop build is not really a deadline (only for those that can't afford it). The only thing real-life about it is that people have figured out a way around it. Underprivileged, privileged... not sure how that fits in the FIRST mission. After figuring out how important it is we fund and build 2 robots... it just seems unnecessary.

For your argument, I'd really like to point you over to (the now defunct) team 1771. Team 1771 has always operated on a very low budget, often having to build their robots on plywood. They've also always had very few mentors and students on the team. Yet 1771 has always been a dominating force in the south, and has gotten very far in championships. In 2011, they seeded first in their division, with 6 members at the competition. Team 1771 was literally the definition of limited resources, but that didn't stop them from iterating and designing and using the time between competitions to improve. It doesn't take $50 grand to make 2 robots, it takes smart use of your resources and labor.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Wing

For your argument, I'd really like to point you over to (the now defunct) team 1771. Team 1771 has always operated on a very low budget, often having to build their robots on plywood.

1771's 2008 robot is definitely one of the coolest robots I've ever seen. I'd also like to add that wood is also a great building material for FRC. It is strong and reasonably lightweight when used correctly, and has a long history of successful uses in plenty of other structures. If you go back and look 1771 also used really quality stuff, so its not like their budget forced them to buy the junk they sell at Home Depot. Wood don't get no respect!

On topic:

I think the strongest argument for the defined build season is Parkinson's Law: "Work expands so as to fill the time available for it's completion." If there was no build season we would all be frantically working on our robots until 4AM on Thursday, and then everyone would be overtired and cranky and nobody would have any fun at the competition. If nobody is having fun, chances are pretty good no one is getting inspired either.

[F22Rapture]

Originally Posted by Wing

For your argument, I'd really like to point you over to (the now defunct) team 1771.

1771 was disbanded?

They were a pretty awesome team. Here's their robot from last year:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27736599/FR...s/IMG_0571.JPG