Is Bag and Tag Necessary?

[Brian Selle]

Having just passed the stop build day, I am left wondering if it is really necessary and moreover, fair.

My thought is that larger, well staffed and funded teams simply build 2 robots and skip over bag and tag day like a formality and their build continues on their 2nd identical, completed robot. Mid-size teams often scramble and stress to find the funds and resources to build 2 robots, but probably have to expend several extra days after the stop build day to bring their 2nd robot online. Smaller, rookie teams haven't figured out the benefit of the 12 week continuous build cycle or simple can't afford it. Bottom line is that stop build = major advantage to teams who can fund and build 2 robots.

I'd like to see a rule that either everyone stops on stop build day or better yet, just do away with it. Like most other competitions, the stop preparing day is the competition day... whether week 1 or week 6 it's completely fair for everyone.

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

[dodar]

Originally Posted by btslaser

Having just passed the stop build day, I am left wondering if it is really necessary and moreover, fair.

My thought is that larger, well staffed and funded teams simply build 2 robots and skip over bag and tag day like a formality and their build continues on their 2nd identical, completed robot. Mid-size teams often scramble and stress to find the funds and resources to build 2 robots, but probably have to expend several extra days after the stop build day to bring their 2nd robot online. Smaller, rookie teams haven't figured out the benefit of the 12 week continuous build cycle or simple can't afford it. Bottom line is that stop build = major advantage to teams who can fund and build 2 robots.

I'd like to see a rule that either everyone stops on stop build day or better yet, just do away with it. Like most other competitions, the stop preparing day is the competition day... whether week 1 or week 6 it's completely fair for everyone.

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

Not all teams that build 2 robots are big and well funded. 1592 was moderately funded but well understaffed for 2 years while building 2 robots but was still able to do it. We found a way to get through this by teaming up with Team 801 who is located not more than 15 miles from our team. Teams do not realize how rewarding it is to be able to work with another team in both fundraising and build season.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by btslaser

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

I need a nap.

My wife and kids need a husband and dad.

George is bagged, and that's a very good thing.

[AllenGregoryIV]

This has been discussed before. The only teams it would hurt are those that have to ship their robots ahead of time. Teams in other countries would be at a disadvantage to those that get to drive their robot to the event. That's the only real downside I see. Also you can't tell potential members/mentors that "it's only 6 weeks" when in reality it's 16 weeks and everyone knows it.

[Akash Rastogi]

2495 built their robot with ~$1000, yet we came up with a way to create a practice bot of sorts with help from the withholding allowance. They are a team of around 12 students and mentors.

Any team is capable of working towards this. Fairness does not come into play with this, I think. I can understand your points though, but I think many, if not most, teams are capable of creating a platform to work on even after bagging their robots.

[KrazyCarl92]

I would be surprised if any team so seamlessly transitions from build season to working exclusively with their practice bot as you suggest. It's certainly an advantage, but building two things as complicated as FRC robots to be identical is about as possible as having two exactly identical thanksgiving meals with the same exact recipes. In many cases, there's a different set of people doing the building or analogous cooking. The two machines will be very similar, but the challenge lies in being realistic about the minor inevitable differences. Last year our team had a competition robot that shot 3 baskets in all year at three events, but a practice bot at home hitting 90% of its shots from the key. It's in no way easy because you have 2 robots.

Building a second robot is an earned advantage by teams. Also, getting rid of bag and tag would prolong the agony of build season until the nights right before tournaments and nobody really wants that to happen. For most teams, the work expands to fill the allotted time, not the other way around.

[topgun]

Work expands to fill the time available. We essentially did a double build season in 2010 since we had a later Regional and people were burned out at the end of the season. Students need a date to focus on otherwise they don't have a sense of urgency to complete it by the bag day.

There are advantages to building two robots, which is your incentive to raise more funds to do it.

The bag and tag restriction I find frustrating is the time that the kids really see the issues with the robot is during the competition. They become focused on the issues and their minds are churning on ideas on how to solve the problems and they are motivated. Then the Regional ends and we have to stick it in the bag until the next Regional. But I don't know how to allow build time between Regionals that would be fair to the first time participants at the next Regional. The solution would be to build a 2nd robot to test the changes on at home between Regionals.

[Undertones]

FIRST is trying to mirror real life situations. If you have a deadline, you work to complete by the deadline, and find ways to work around it (practice robots). This ties into the whole "there are two types of underprivileged teams; the ones who whine about being underprivileged and the ones that work to become privileged". Bag and tag is an integral part of FIRST. It will always be around.

[XaulZan11]

Another 'fairness' aspect to consider. If there is one dominate design/strategy shown in week 1, which team will be more likely to be able to change their robot before their event in week 4--the team that typically struggles to build 1 robot in 6 weeks or the team that typically builds a practice robot? I'm not saying things should be fair, but if you do think follow that belief, I'm not sure getting rid of the bag 'n tag is more 'fair'.

[Brandon_L]

smart/modular design doesn't hurt-

We designed about 80% of our robot into one device (the last 20% being the drivetrain). Total weight of said device: 27.8 pounds. The only thing we bagged this year was a drivetrain and a bit of a frame, we have a few more weeks to perfect everything else. No practice robot needed (although we did build half of a second frame that we mounted to a wooden drive with no motors)

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by btslaser

Having just passed the stop build day, I am left wondering if it is really necessary and moreover, fair.

My thought is that larger, well staffed and funded teams simply build 2 robots and skip over bag and tag day like a formality and their build continues on their 2nd identical, completed robot. Mid-size teams often scramble and stress to find the funds and resources to build 2 robots, but probably have to expend several extra days after the stop build day to bring their 2nd robot online. Smaller, rookie teams haven't figured out the benefit of the 12 week continuous build cycle or simple can't afford it. Bottom line is that stop build = major advantage to teams who can fund and build 2 robots.

I'd like to see a rule that either everyone stops on stop build day or better yet, just do away with it. Like most other competitions, the stop preparing day is the competition day... whether week 1 or week 6 it's completely fair for everyone.

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

What is your team's objective? Is it to win? Is it to field a robot? Is it to have a good time and maybe get into the eliminations? My point here is that it not every teams enters a robot to win. Those who want to win will realize that they need to be able to iterate and develop and practice in the time between bag and competition. The practice bot is a tool to help these teams iterate and practice. They're not actually putting the practice robot onto the field.

Also, every team can get a practice bot. Our team operates on a 20-30k budget from student dues, sponsorships, and fundraisers. We have 1 engineering mentor, with 2 teacher mentors and 2 college students, and we have a 20 person team. We placed our goal for winning this year, so the team decided to put in the extra effort and time to build the practice bot alongside the competition bot and continue to iterate before our competitions in week 1 and week 3.

It's not hard to do, Just be smart with your resources and plan ahead. Plus having a goal to rally around isn't a bad thing either

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

smart/modular design doesn't hurt-

This. Our shooter can come off by loosening two brackets. Although we didn't really plan for modular design, the ability to take off the shooter (weighing 12 lbs) helps considerably. If you want to practice with say, a shooter and you don't have the funds for a full second robot, being able to withhold the major part and place it on say, a kitbot can bring you pretty close to a practice bot in results.

[Brian Selle]

Originally Posted by Undertones

FIRST is trying to mirror real life situations. If you have a deadline, you work to complete by the deadline, and find ways to work around it (practice robots). This ties into the whole "there are two types of underprivileged teams; the ones who whine about being underprivileged and the ones that work to become privileged". Bag and tag is an integral part of FIRST. It will always be around.

The point is that stop build is not really a deadline (only for those that can't afford it). The only thing real-life about it is that people have figured out a way around it. Underprivileged, privileged... not sure how that fits in the FIRST mission. After figuring out how important it is we fund and build 2 robots... it just seems unnecessary.

[labrat_one]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

Also, getting rid of bag and tag would prolong the agony of build season until the nights right before tournaments and nobody really wants that to happen. For most teams, the work expands to fill the allotted time, not the other way around.

The "fair" way to remove bag and tag would be requiring every team compete in the first weekend of competitions. After the first weekend, teams that registered for Weeks 2-6 would still compete in later events and World Championship, should they qualify. The aforementioned competition requirement would force every team into a 'District' and require many more regionals on the schedule.

[Lil' Lavery]

If they get rid of "stop build" day, I'm never signing up for another event before week 4. Nor will I do much beyond prototyping until I see how the game plays out and what designs other teams have come up with.