Is Bag and Tag Necessary?

[Aroki]

In my opinion, the real question isn't whether or not FRC is "fair," but whether or not it matters if it's "fair." That being said, I"m on the fence on this one.

Anyway that's just my 2 cents, also good luck to everyone at regionals

[nixiebunny]

I see Bag n Tag as a good thing, to focus the teams on getting the design/build process complete in six weeks.

Our team built a practice drive base in December so that we'd have some experience driving it and be able to test ideas. As it turns out, it is not entirely compatible with our real robot design. Nonetheless, we're going to modify it to support our withheld shooter mechanism (15 lbs) and run it with our withheld cRIO and Talons to improve our score before our week 4 regional.

We still worked up till midnight Tuesday to get the real drive base in the bag.

We are on a very low budget, but we did spend a couple hundred dollars to save us having to tear apart the gearboxes on the real bot to borrow the CIMs and encoders for the practice bot. That would have wasted a couple hours of our practice day.

As for the problem of not having time with family, our entire family is on the team and we're doing the after-season upgrading/testing in our house, so no big deal there.

[sanddrag]

I hate that to be truly competitive in this sport it's now almost required to have a practice robot. The part I really dislike is that we are incurring all these additional costs to have something sitting in a bag, while we continue work on an identical copy. In that regard, bagging is rather pointless, and does little other than imposing additional costs on the teams who do have the means to do a practice robot. You are simply putting yourself at a serious disadvantage if you don't have one. You're buying more time essentially. And the methods and standards by which we work imposes significant significant additional costs and work hours on the team. Yes a practice robot gives a definite advantage, but it also gives A LOT of additional workload. It's not to be taken lightly, and it's not for every team. It's twice the welding hours, twice the COTS parts costs, twice the fundraising to pay for it all, and the additional time investment of development and practice.

Our build season runs from January 5th until March 27th, and it's torture on personal lives. I have over 400 hours into this already. As a team, we have over 5800 people-hours into it this season, and we aren't close to being done yet. It would be nice to have a hard date that says we get to go home and sleep, but we aren't part of a sleeping competition. We can sleep on March 31st after our second regional.

The part I do like though is that it gives more students the opportunity to be a part of the robot wiring and assembly and gives them more opportunities to design, test, iterate, and refine.

[Jon Stratis]

Yes, Bag and Tag is necessary, purely for my personal sanity. 6 weeks is about all I can take of the build season before I get so far behind other personal and work commitments that I can't catch up. Plus, I need the sleep!

[Nemo]

People get on their soap boxes pretty quickly when they perceive a whiff of a chance that somebody is complaining about teams with resources. But I think the OP brings up a great point. If we didn't have to bag it after six weeks, we wouldn't need to build a practice robot. It would require less resources to accomplish the same goals. Makes sense to me.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

If they get rid of "stop build" day, I'm never signing up for another event before week 4. Nor will I do much beyond prototyping until I see how the game plays out and what designs other teams have come up with.

This.

[Grim Tuesday]

I think to summarize what Akash and Lil Lavery are saying, in the current system, Stop Build Day is the end of the design process for good/mediocore teams and a definite design freeze for even the very best.

[kiasam111]

One of the things that we have improved on this year is upping our driver training. As the operator last year, the drive team basically drove on bag and tag night, then drove at the regional (Orlando).

For this reason, it is essential for us to be building a second robot, so that we can continue to train our drivers.

[DjMaddius]

Originally Posted by kiasam111

One of the things that we have improved on this year is upping our driver training. As the operator last year, the drive team basically drove on bag and tag night, then drove at the regional (Orlando).

For this reason, it is essential for us to be building a second robot, so that we can continue to train our drivers.

Our drivers (me being one) haven't gotten a single 'practice' day in years. We don't have time, we build until we are at competition most of the time. Forcing a huge learning curve on me and other drivers at competition.

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Yes, Bag and Tag is necessary, purely for my personal sanity. 6 weeks is about all I can take of the build season before I get so far behind other personal and work commitments that I can't catch up. Plus, I need the sleep!

Eight years haven't changed the impact of build season: A classic, spotlighted post.

[pfreivald]

I wish they'd get rid of the withholding allowance altogether. Seriously. In a town as small as mine, finding mentors is difficult, and mentors with kids are almost nonexistent.

I love the competitive aspect of FIRST -- you not only have to build a robot to complete tasks, you have to build it to complete tasks better than everyone else's robots. I love the hard work and the long nights and the drive to always be better than you've been in the past--in design, in build, in fundraising... I love the drive and commitment and...

I have a wife I didn't see for eleven days straight (including Valentine's day). I skipped a nephew's birthday party pre-ship, and because we can withhold, on Saturday I will be missing his going-away party before he ships out for the Navy. One of my good friends is also shipping out (Marines), and I'm going to miss his send-off, too.

FIRST asks a lot from its mentors, and it seems that every year, that amount only ever gets bigger. Maybe it's because of my particular situation--tiny town (3,000 people), tiny school (~750 students K-12), geographic isolation (Southern Tier, with lakes and impassable hills separating most towns)--but a whole crapton of stuff falls on my shoulders, and finding others to share the load is very, very difficult.

I'm not complaining -- like I said, I love it. But if they eliminated Stop Build Day, I'd almost definitely quit.

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel like Mr. Freivald brings up a valid point. For us, the students and many of the mentors, we would love to work for the rest of the year. However, our teacher adviser gets incredibly fatigued by the end of the season; we had to beg him to come in last Sunday. That said, we're incredibly grateful we have someone who is willing to dedicate so much of their time to us. But at the same time, we are already at the limits of how much he is willing to do. For us, a practice bot is near impossible; we would have nowhere to build it or practice with it. The witholding allowance problematic: We are moving to a local sponsor with two mentors and six students of our 76 person team for this weekend but this is a situation much less than ideal.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are situations outside the control of how dedicated the students and mentors are. I wouldn't propose eliminating the witholding or practice bots entirely but I think this is an interesting issue to discuss and would like to present other sides to it.

[Wayne TenBrink]

I am personally glad that bag day exists. If it didn't I am afraid I would spend every available extra minute working on the robot. I really don't want to do that. Hopefully my family hasn't given up on me to the point where they don't care if I'm ever home or not.

Practice robots don't bother me. We don't build one. Withholding, out-of-bag time (FiM), and two district events give us plenty of practice and opportunity to make the necessary fixes and upgrades. The out-of-bag time (at your own shop) in the week leading up to your next competition is a good middle ground between bag and no-bag IMHO.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by jason_zielke

Imagine the excitement that teams could build in their schools and local communities prior to a competition if they were actually allowed to demonstrate that robot BEFORE and DURING the competition season. Our teams need this ability to build a fan base and a following. We need students, parents and community partners outside of our teams to get excited about our robots before they get to competition so we have a way to get them to attend.

Teams could show off their robots at prep rallies just before they head off to district or regional competitions just like all the athletic teams in the district.

If we really want to be the "Varsity Sport for the Mind", we need to market ourselves like a varsity sport. I can think of no better time (and I have tried) to show off our robots than right before we head off to competition.

With this simple change, our ability to inspire others would grow immensely.

In my opinion, this benefit outweighs any of the possible downsides, because this is the true mission of FIRST.

I believe that if a team contacts FIRST, gives reason and follows direction that FIRST does allow a team to do a demo then rebag. I have seen the bag and tag forms that show it happening.

[CLandrum3081]

Nothing I'm about to say is going to be said for argument purposes. Just posting my opinion on this issue I've struggled with as well.

I think there's the obvious catch of teams at week 6 competitions having an advantage over teams at week 1 competitions. Yeah, that still happens anyway, between the extra time to fabricate those 30 pounds and being able to watch some matches on TBA and every other reason we could come up with.

But without bag day, teams at week 6 competitions could just as easily decide not to build anything other than a chassis before week 2. It would be stupid because they would have less time, but who needs that when you can already see what works and what doesn't? What the teams that are going to championships are doing? Are they all shooters? Are they all climbers? Oh, they're all climbers! Let's make ours climb too!

As for the practice bot thing, I'll provide an example of my own team. We have very limited resources and even fewer hands to work on our robot. One element of our robot is currently on nothing but an extra chassis. That element will be our thirty pounds. We didn't build a whole second robot. We have our basically-done robot sitting happily in its bag and crate, waiting for our week 2 regional. We will practice with just the chassis and the element. That's all we need.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...for teams who think they need a whole extra bot for practice...think again. Last year, we basically just practiced with a chassis that could knock down a bridge. We won our regional and went to St. Louis - with money, I might add, we begged frantically for in less than three weeks. We scrambled, but we made it. There's something inspiring about a ragtag, previously mediocre team that makes it to the World Championship.

Besides competition - why are we in robotics? I certainly wouldn't have joined if I thought it was like any other sport. You can see sports as unfair too - there's always going to be a better, stronger, faster team. But did they get that way because they were well-funded? Unlikely. Because their team has been around for twenty years? Well, it certainly hasn't helped our high school sports teams. Did they get that way because they worked for it? More likely. Part of why I quit other sports was because of the attitude - that "we're the best team in the world if we win" and "it's not our fault we lost" attitude. I certainly didn't come to robotics to hear more of it.

I joined to learn about science, technology, and engineering. Doing well is a bonus. Sometimes, it doesn't take a second robot or being able to use all $4000 in your budget - it takes determination, a little luck - and maybe a better attitude.

Hope that helps.