What we learned from week 1

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by ToddF

Getting back to the topic of the thread...

lessons not already mentioned:...

- Even with disk pickup, unless defense is very heavy, running back to the feeder station for disks can be quicker than picking them up from the floor.
...)

I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

[Jeffy]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

What I observed in both our practice, and watching a few webcasts:
-Disks are often scattered
-Many robots don't have mechanisms that just suck in the frisbees at the speed of light and index them perfectly without a little help from the driver.

The multiple changes of direction required and subsequent acceleration from near stop to pick up Frisbees from the floor in multiple locations can often lead to a slower time compared to the straight and practiced path that going to the feeder station entails.

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

Where the carpet is smooth, the disks are optimally placed, and the driver and operator make no mistakes, picking up from the floor can be very quick. If any of these factors are missing, which is often, the number of hoppers of disks shot in a match drops by about one. For us, if everything went perfectly, we could pickup and shoot 3 hoppers worth. If there were problems, that dropped to 2 or 1 hopper.

When we tried going to the feeder station, even with light defense, we could load 2-3 hoppers. Again, drive team mistakes, or heavy defense could drop that number by 1 or 2.

One factor we did not expect was that at least one defender seemed to be targeting our arm for damage. They would back off when it was up, but as soon as it would come down, the defender seemed like they were trying to hit the arm. We expected some amount of consequential damage, but did not prepare enough spares for that kind of defense, even though the possibility was certainly foreseeable.

Since floor pickup and feeder loading seemed to be roughly equal in speed, (at least with our arm) we made the strategic decision to reduce the risk of damage to our arm by saving it for autonomous scoring. We would also use it if heavily defended when running back and forth to the feeder station.

The equation changes a bit if you have a very fast floor pickup mechanism, and/or have had lots of time to practice with it. That may shift the balance towards floor pickup.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Sam_Mills

Our human player practiced for hours and hours on the human feed station from the team drawings. Part of what made him so lethal is that he trained on the plywood one where he had no sight. Palmetto was the first time he got to use a real field, and it was like taking off a blindfold for him.

Was anyone else (at other events) told that you cannot stack discs on the feeder station slides or low goal? Our Head Ref told us specifically not to, but it seems a lot if other events, and even some teams at our event, weren't. (I never saw any penalties called for it, and there's no direct rule.) It didn't overly bother me as we couldn't have taken full advantage of it this time, but Week 3 we should be able to. I hope they clear that up.


As a note, the 'arduousness' to become a ref this year is significantly down from 2012 (no training, just test and maybe an optional telecon). I point this out only because it's partly due to the difficulty of recruiting referees. Some events are short several refs mere weeks before game time. Occasionally refs are literally at their first competition. The process can only be as hard as the quota accepts. It's sometimes rough on teams, and I've been on the bad side of poor calls (I've also been on the bad side of yelled-at). There are some serious Week 1 problems this year. But yelling at refs is a good way to not have any left. Suggestion - if you want refs with more experience, volunteer!

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Siri

Was anyone else (at other events) told that you cannot stack discs on the feeder station slides or low goal? Our Head Ref told us specifically not to, but it seems a lot if other events, and even some teams at our event, weren't. (I never saw any penalties called for it, and there's no direct rule.) It didn't overly bother me as we couldn't have taken full advantage of it this time, but Week 3 we should be able to. I hope they clear that up.

Siri,

We had a long discussion about this at varying points on Friday night and Saturday morning. From what we could find, there is no rule that specifically disallows this, and the reason that we were given was that 'Stacking Discs could cause field damage'... Some point after that, there was mention of disc stacking being legal, or being clarified to be legal, but I don't remember if we were ever given a conclusive answer...

All of that being said, should you need to stack discs on top of either the low goal or the slot covers at your next event, I'd say to do it until you're told not to - at which point ask them to cite the rule that disallows it.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Siri,

We had a long discussion about this at varying points on Friday night and Saturday morning. From what we could find, there is no rule that specifically disallows this, and the reason that we were given was that 'Stacking Discs could cause field damage'... Some point after that, there was mention of disc stacking being legal, or being clarified to be legal, but I don't remember if we were ever given a conclusive answer...

All of that being said, should you need to stack discs on top of either the low goal or the slot covers at your next event, I'd say to do it until you're told not to - at which point ask them to cite the rule that disallows it.

This is about what we got as well, Dustin. The field damage argument seemed an odd one, but I never heard even a rumor of a reversal. I wish FIRST had a standardized mechanism for announcing reversals/clarifications at events. (I've seen everything from pit-to-pit ref visits, in-queue statements, coaches' meetings, to pit announcements...) We'll see if the Q&A turns up anything useful. Otherwise it's a question of asking forgiveness vs permission. Given the importance of it though, I hope they standardize.


In other news, the GDC has answered the G29 clarification Q&A.

A: As [G29] states, the intent is to penalize "deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside its FRAME PERIMETER."

Looks like they're sticking by it--G29 applies any time a robot damages or deliberately contacts a robot inside it's perimeter (correct conjunction is "or"; extended elements not required). High-bumpered bots, be careful in your pushing matches!

[pathew100]

Originally Posted by ToddF

One factor we did not expect was that at least one defender seemed to be targeting our arm for damage. They would back off when it was up, but as soon as it would come down, the defender seemed like they were trying to hit the arm. We expected some amount of consequential damage, but did not prepare enough spares for that kind of defense, even though the possibility was certainly foreseeable.

Blue Box, G29 "High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements."

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by pathew100

Blue Box, G29 "High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements."

I don't think Todd was trying to say that any rules were violated, just surprised at the amount of defense that was played against a floor pickup robot when the pickup mechanism is down. We designed a floor intake expecting to have some defense played against it. Our current iteration of it looks overkill, but we still doubt its rigidity against heavy defense.

[ToddF]

Just so I'm clear, I am not advocating that yelling at referees is in any way acceptable at a FIRST event. It goes against the principles of being a GP, and is against the rules, as well.

G18: All Teams must be civil towards other Teams, competition personnel, and event attendees.

Unfortunately, the process that FIRST has established to protest incorrect match outcomes, is fatally flawed. It should not be acceptable that the outcome of a properly presented protest to a documentably game changing bad call should be that nothing is done because, "I didn't see that." or "It's too late. The field has already been reset."

We need a better process by which we can all stay civil, but game changing mistakes can be corrected. We all understand that referees can and do make mistakes. Those mistakes can and should be corrected so that those who play by the rules don't lose to those that break them, by accident or otherwise.

[EricDrost]

Originally Posted by ToddF

We need a better process by which we can all stay civil, but game changing mistakes can be corrected. We all understand that referees can and do make mistakes. Those mistakes can and should be corrected so that those who play by the rules don't lose to those that break them, by accident or otherwise.

Maybe in elims, the final score (including penalties) should be confirmed with the captain of each alliance before the field is reset?