What we learned from week 1

[SoccerTaco]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

We have footage of the match, but it focuses most on our machine.

It sucks that you guys didn't get that call. That was the hardest match all event.

- Sunny G.

Cannot see it from that angle. We were shooting not climbing, and still made the shots, so the hit was not "consequential" - I think that would make it the 3 pointer variety. It was enough of a hit to be very obvious to me, but we all miss things sometimes. It wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[ToddF]

Getting back to the topic of the thread...

lessons not already mentioned:
- The condition of the carpet under and around the pyramid is terrible. Other teams with pickup mechanisms take note. If they are based on scooping the disks with a dustpan type of scoop, like ours is, expect problems. We nearly destroyed our pickup arm by catching it on a taped carpet seam. See this video at time 2:00. We attempted to avoid driving over the seams with the arm down, and paid for it when we forgot.

- We saw zero upside down disks on the field until the feeders began throwing the colored ones. We're glad we didn't spend time designing a disk flipper. We dedicated a camera to looking at the floor so we could avoid upside down frisbees. We will re-aim that camera to look into the robot to see if our hopper gets jammed.

- Even with disk pickup, unless defense is very heavy, running back to the feeder station for disks can be quicker than picking them up from the floor.

- Practice results in proficiency. I'm still in awe of how effective team 11's feeder was at loading their robot quickly. The technique he used and the skill he exhibited isn't something that just happens. It has to be learned and developed by practicing with field elements that match the real ones, not the facsimiles suggested in the team drawings.

- There is a reason why high school, college, and professional coaches sometimes scream at referees. Maybe if FIRST referees got chewed out when they blow calls, it might happen less often. These games are way too competitive, and way too much blood, sweat, and tears are invested by teams for us to just shrug away referee mistakes that change the outcome of matches. In all honesty, one lesson that could be learned from week one matches is that a strategy of risking G30 penalty points while playing defense pays off big time. By not enforcing the rules, FIRST is very effectively teaching high school students that it is better to break the rules than to be GP. All the pep talks by mentors about being Gracious Professionals, and how cheaters don't prosper mean nothing when FIRST allows rule breakers to win matches with no prospect for even appealing an obvious missed call. (OK, maybe this lesson has already been beat to death, but I just couldn't resist.)

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by ToddF

Getting back to the topic of the thread...

lessons not already mentioned:...

- Even with disk pickup, unless defense is very heavy, running back to the feeder station for disks can be quicker than picking them up from the floor.
...)

I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

[Jeffy]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

What I observed in both our practice, and watching a few webcasts:
-Disks are often scattered
-Many robots don't have mechanisms that just suck in the frisbees at the speed of light and index them perfectly without a little help from the driver.

The multiple changes of direction required and subsequent acceleration from near stop to pick up Frisbees from the floor in multiple locations can often lead to a slower time compared to the straight and practiced path that going to the feeder station entails.

[jeleser]

Originally Posted by ToddF

- Practice results in proficiency. I'm still in awe of how effective team 11's feeder was at loading their robot quickly. The technique he used and the skill he exhibited isn't something that just happens. It has to be learned and developed by practicing with field elements that match the real ones, not the facsimiles suggested in the team drawings.

Could you please specify? I saw plenty of human players stacking four frisbees at a time on top of the feeder slots for easy access, but was there more to the way 11's human player fed frisbees?

[Dr. Shocker]

Jeffy, I think the point that Cormier was trying to make was that, at least at FLR, defense was VERY heavy.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by jeleser

Could you please specify? I saw plenty of human players stacking four frisbees at a time on top of the feeder slots for easy access, but was there more to the way 11's human player fed frisbees?

11's feeder was able to get all 4 discs in within a matter of about 2 seconds. Their process was very streamlined. I'd like to say our feeder was the exact same way, able to get all 4 discs in within 2 seconds, except 11's faster drivetrain and shooter enabled them to take advantage of a fast feeder and make 4 runs. It's all about technique. Our human player has been practicing loading our robot since Bag day and has developed a stacking technique to make it work quickly.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Dr. Shocker

Jeffy, I think the point that Cormier was trying to make was that, at least at FLR, defense was VERY heavy.

I expected a shift to heavy defense, especially on Saturday morning when teams who just couldn't get their offensive capabilities together decided to switch tactics in the hopes of being a second-round pick. I wasn't disappointed--in spades!

...until I was disappointed by just how darned good 1126 suddenly was on defense!

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

I expected a shift to heavy defense, especially on Saturday morning when teams who just couldn't get their offensive capabilities together decided to switch tactics in the hopes of being a second-round pick. I wasn't disappointed--in spades!

...until I was disappointed by just how darned good 1126 suddenly was on defense!

I seen them do this before at IRI in 2008.

[Ankit S.]

Originally Posted by ToddF

- There is a reason why high school, college, and professional coaches sometimes scream at referees. Maybe if FIRST referees got chewed out when they blow calls, it might happen less often.

While I understand what you are saying, FIRST refs are volunteers. High school, college, professional, and sometimes even little league sports refs are paid. Screaming at the refs is definitely not how we want to tackle the problem of inconsistent calls.

We should be thanking the refs for volunteering, not shouting at them for missing a call.

[scaryone]

Picking up frisbees was so unimportant, we removed our pickup mechanism. Which worked very well.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by ToddF

- There is a reason why high school, college, and professional coaches sometimes scream at referees. Maybe if FIRST referees got chewed out when they blow calls, it might happen less often. These games are way too competitive...
By not enforcing the rules, FIRST is very effectively teaching high school students that it is better to break the rules than to be GP. All the pep talks by mentors about being Gracious Professionals, and how cheaters don't prosper mean nothing when FIRST allows rule breakers to win matches with no prospect for even appealing an obvious missed call.

If your students are learning that:
a) yelling at refs will get them a win,
b) it is better to risk penalties and break the rules,
c) the problem with cheating is that it leads to losing, and
d) the problem with c) is that it's incorrect,
then we aren't playing the same game. Hope I'm misinterpreting. Play hard, but always play fair, because it isn't ever about the win.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by BeltSanderRocks

While I understand what you are saying, FIRST refs are volunteers. High school, college, professional, and sometimes even little league sports refs are paid. Screaming at the refs is definitely not how we want to tackle the problem of inconsistent calls.

We should be thanking the refs for volunteering, not shouting at them for missing a call.

I know I'm beating a dead horse at this point, and i know they are volunteers, but to be a referee, it's an arduous process. You have to take a referee's test, get trained by FIRST, and have to have experience. Referees are volunteers, but because of the rigors of getting that position, I expect them to fully implement the rules. I will be angry when 2 elimination matches are blown by bad ref calls*. I expect these volunteers to be prepared fully to referee and call every foul consistently.

Trust me, i know what it's like to be a referee. While not on the same scale, i reffed for FTC local qualifiers. it's a tough job, but I spent at least 6 hours preparing for the job and made sure to call everything that I could possibly see, so the competition was fair. I expect every referee to be trained properly and well versed in the rules and any exceptions made in the Q&A.

*Our team could've done better in the match, and when I look back on it, that's certainly the case, but it still stands that G30 was not called once when it was infracted upon at least 3 times in one match, a climb that was legal was ruled illegal, and another climb that was illegal was ruled legal.

[FIRST_Parent]

What I learned from week-1 is that once again my son has been inspired to the level that he came home after the BAE Systems Granite State FIRST Robotics Regional Competition with the biggest smile I have seen on his face for a long long time. I am truly grateful for that.

[Sam_Mills]

Originally Posted by ToddF

Getting back to the topic of the thread...

- Practice results in proficiency. I'm still in awe of how effective team 11's feeder was at loading their robot quickly. The technique he used and the skill he exhibited isn't something that just happens. It has to be learned and developed by practicing with field elements that match the real ones, not the facsimiles suggested in the team drawings.

Our human player practiced for hours and hours on the human feed station from the team drawings. Part of what made him so lethal is that he trained on the plywood one where he had no sight. Palmetto was the first time he got to use a real field, and it was like taking off a blindfold for him.