2013 Greater Toronto East Regional

[Mr. Lim]

Atonomous is obviously frustrated.

I don't mind his comment at all - because it is painfully honest. At least he/she is saying exactly what's on their mind, instead of slipping away quietly, throwing their hands in the air, and leaving the FRC program entirely without ever expressing their frustrations. For all I know Atonomous could be one of the incredibly dedicated Ontario mentors who's been involved with FRC for over a decade, has worked tirelessly to build a world-class robot year after year, but just can't take the final step to qualify for Champs because it is so incredibly difficult to do in Ontario.

Or maybe he/she has just sacrificed a year of their life trying to do the ultimate FRC challenge: getting a rookie team off the ground. Maybe they are contemplating not coming back next year because they feel disenfranchised. Team sustainability is one of the biggest challenges FRC faces, and the last thing we want are good mentors walking away from the program.

What I don't appreciate is a throng of non-Ontario teams jumping down his/her throat and pushing them further away, instead of actually trying to understand why this person is frustrated, and maybe even fix it.

That's just lazy and unproductive.

I am in a very fortunate position where I constantly get to hear very raw, unadulterated, and passionate comments from other Ontario mentors. I couldn't tell you how many times a mentor has pulled me aside at competition and started the conversation with "I'm not coming back next year because..."

Frankly, you need to take comments like that very seriously, and act on them (i.e. pushing for a WildCard system, district point system, or even putting together a plan on how to help their team obtain a qualification spot to CMP).

Being in Ontario, it's not hard to see why people (like Atonomous) say these things.

Consider the following:

In a pre-wildcard system, if 610 had competed at GTRE instead of BAE this year, 610 probably wouldn't qualify for CMP.

In 2012, if 610 had competed in WAT instead of AZ, we wouldn't have qualified for CMP.

In 2011, 610 played only in Ontario, and did not qualify for CMP. We attended only because we pre-registered as we hadn't qualified for CMP for so many years prior. This robot went on to be 469's 1st pick, and a Curie division finalist, losing to the eventual world champs in 3 matches.

We're lucky that 610 has the resources to travel... we would travel anyways, because we love representing our city, province, country and FIRST as a whole. But fundamentally, we are an Ontario team who should be competing in Ontario as much as possible. Consistently leaving Ontario to find a spot at CMP seems... well... wrong. Truthfully, I don't think the people in the areas outside of Ontario where we compete find it all that great that we take away local spots from them either.

But it's that, or strategically trying to be the 24th best team at all our Ontario regionals, which also seems... well... wrong.

And it's not just 610. There is a large pool of world-class teams in Ontario who probably deserve to go to CMP each year, but just can't find a way despite building robots which are CMP worthy, but just not as good as 2056 and 1114.

188 did not qualify or attend CMP in 2012 - a shocker, because both 610 and 188 were actually favoured to beat 2056 and 1114 in the GTRE finals that year. Yes, hard to believe CD, but ask the actual people in the stands that day at the 2012 GTRE and they'll tell you the same. Also, 188 only snuck in to CMP in 2010 and 2011 as a last-minute wait-listed team as they couldn't qualify. Crazy...

What if 4334 was an Ontario team? Would their robot ever qualify for CMP again? They're too good to be 24th pick at an Ontario regional, but not quite good enough (yet) to beat them. The original "Eh Team" would never reunite at CMP.

I would never berate a team who is looking out for their own success. Winning a regional is of the utmost importance to some teams. It was to us last year in AZ, and this year in BAE.

But as we know, FIRST is about so much more than the robots...

For teams who have already secured a spot at CMP, it could also be about ensuring that our area/province/country is represented by as many of the best area teams as possible at CMP, and that these teams get the opportunity to be inspired on the biggest FRC stage in the world. This is a bigger picture view that has a lot of merit, especially for teams that believe in the concept of "Team Canada" or have similar patriotic or regional motivations.

Now, the wildcard system changes things dramatically in Ontario, and I hope people like Atonomous appreciate the effect it has on us. It's still not perfect. It's not quite the district points system, but it is much better than before. Previously, at GTRE, WAT and GTRW a total of 6 of the 9 Ontario winner qualification spots could be used up by two dominant teams. Those duplicate spots used to simply disappear, lost forever into the abyss. The remaining 3 would go to "24th-best" calibre robots. The 3rd to 6th best robots in Ontario would never get a shot at CMP. With the wildcards now, the landscape changes dramatically.

Consider the "worst case" at Waterloo and GTRW, assuming 1114 and 2056 win both. At both these regionals the Finalist Alliance Captain and their 1st Pick would be offered spots to CMP.

You'd better believe teams like 772, 907, 1310, 1334, 1503, 2013, 2220, 2386, 2702, 2852, 3161, and 3683 are going to be gunning for those 4 finalist spots. Whereas in the past, they would be completely shut out.

You'll notice there is no negativity towards 2056 or 1114 in this post. They've earned everything they've gotten.

But there needs to be a way for Ontario's other teams to see success as well, because quite frankly, they've earned it too.

We're getting there, but there's still plenty of work to do.

[David13]

On behalf of the alumni, congratulations Team 781 on our team's first Regional Chairman's Award. I am incredibly impressed by how much work you have done over the past few years.

The powerhouse teams in Ontario have had a huge impact on Ontario teams in multiple ways. In the former CMP qualification system (pre-Wildcards), many Ontario teams began focusing their efforts on the Chairman's award as a way to qualify for champs. It seems to have paid off; 1305, 771, 1241, 1334, 2809 and 781 (I'm probably forgetting some) have all won either Chairman's or EI in recent years.

In response to Mr. Lim's post, I agree that it has been too difficult in the past to qualify based solely on robot performance in Ontario. Teams like 1114 and 2056 have drastically elevated the level of play in Ontario, but unfortunately many second-tier teams never qualify for Champs. I think the best example was in 2011 when Greater Toronto was split into a double regional. 1114 won East with 1503 as their first pick, while 2056 won West with 781. At Champs, both 1114 and 2056 were #1 divisional picks (an incredible achievement). However, both of their partners from Toronto, 1503 and 781, played on Einstein that year. If 1114 and 2056 had played together at GTR that year, these Ontario teams would not have been able to show what they can do on the world stage. Ultimately, this wild card system will be better for us because it will allow more Canadian teams to compete at the highest level.

[Duncan Macdonald]

2809 had a great time this past weekend. Hopefully Kingston teams wont earn a reputation after 2809 and 4476 broke each other in sequential elimination matches.

Suggesting 2056 should pick someone else is not a well thought out idea. If there were an event later in the year with 781, 1241, 4476, 2809, 610 attending would you tell them not to pick each other as well so other teams could get the championship eligibility passed down to them if they win or are finalists?

To further on what Shawn said. I'm hoping that the wild card system will be expanded to pass down eligibility regardless of how the existing entry to championships was earned now that 1114 is a Hall of Fame team. Without this I see the typical 3rd to 10th canadian teams avoiding GTRE in the future and "letting" 1114 and 2056 take the first event. (Nobody wants to see GTRE 2011 ever again)

The only issue I have with 1114 and 2056 is that there are exactly two of them. If Ontario can get 3,4 or 24 teams consistently up to this level then we won't see this thread every year. For those of you across the border, it wasn't that long ago that you didn't have to be the Robodogs to come and visit. The total level of competition is definitely increasing but we've got some work to do still.
(Average points by team on friday to the best of our scouts ability [1114 started hanging consistently on saturday])


Congratulations to 781, 1241, 2056, 1114, 1325, 4476 on their success this weekend.

[Racer26]

David and Mr. Lim are spot on.

The wildcard system will have a huge impact in Ontario, and in other regions where multiple CMP slots are consistently eaten up by the same elite few teams.

Its just unfortunate they restricted it to "Has already won a 2013 regional" and not "Already qualified for CMP on a merit-based invitation". It means that 1241 and 4343 making Finalist Captain and Finalist 1st pick at GTRE this weekend, eventually being defeated by the "already qualified as 2012 Einstein Robots" 1114 and 2056, aren't invited to CMP.

[billylo]

I'd like to share Stephen Covey's Habit #1 here... "Be Proactive". He advocates an "Inside-Out" approach, starting from one's self.

What can I do to make a difference?

1. If you like the wildcard system, please join me in sending an email to FRC at frcteams@usfirst.org to give them credits for listening to the communities' need. Or send one to Dean Kamen himself too. I am sure all of them are keen to hear suggestions for improvements too!

2. There are an exceptional number of passionate volunteers in the FIRST community here. They care about FIRST's mission and the students very much. Encourage everyone to participate in CANFIRST. The more participation, the more likely we will enhance the overall impact of FIRST in Canada, quality of the teams, and eventually make this thread obsolete.

3. If you are a student, learn as much as possible from the powerhouses like 1114 and 2056. Visit their pits, talk to their folks, don't be shy. Once you have acquired these knowledge, you have already won... whatever happens on the playing field.

[Libby K]

I experienced my first Ontario event this week, and I had an amazing time.

I plan on making Canadian events a tradition- thanks for having me!

[SarahBeth]

Originally Posted by fox46

Lol thanks, we've got two more regionals to go so don't count us out yet! There is a long list of improvments to hash out over the next week and a bit before Boston. The team is very determined to make this year "Their" year to win.

Unfortunately we don't have any data posted specifically on how it works but I've got a pile of on-board GoPro video which should show the hardware in action. I'll try to get something posted soon. In the mean time, the reveal video one of our members made has some footage of our practice bot climbing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFh7...ature=youtu.be

Check us out on Facebook for updates. "Cybergnomes Robotics FRC Team 2013"

That video is great, I do love it! And your climber is very very similar to the one that our team talked about building originally and then ended up going in a different direction. I'm really looking forward to seeing it in action in Boston.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

Atonomous is obviously frustrated.

...

I definitely agree with your post. While I think the Wild Card system might seem like a godsend to great but not super-elite teams in your province, there is still more work to be done. Since FRC has ballooned, a lot of quirks have been found in the regional system that are more like drawbacks.

Not to make this "about me", but regional sizes are not fixed, so you can have regionals as small as, let's say, 32 or 35 teams, or as big as 65 teams. An area that has two or more smaller regionals benefits more than one big regional. However, the benefit is "neutralized" when the super-elites sign up for all of the smaller regionals in that area.

I know the "it's not about the robots" police might attack me for talking about the way we hand out chamiponship bids, but Championships is harder to get into now, and the event itself is about more than the robots. Not every team should go, but plenty of teams that are deserving of a spot have been left out to dry by fitting the square peg that is the traditional regional system into the circular, eye-of-a-needle sized hole that is a spot for a team at CMP.

Would this be a place to ask why Ontario has never moved into a district system? It could even be an open district system, and maybe allow for cross pollination with FIM, NEFIRST, etc...

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Would this be a place to ask why Ontario has never moved into a district system? It could even be an open district system, and maybe allow for cross pollination with FIM, NEFIRST, etc...

So far as I know, this is in the works, and the cross-pollination thing would be more possible once the district model is adopted in more places.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Racer26

So far as I know, this is in the works, and the cross-pollination thing would be more possible once the district model is adopted in more places.

Definitely; I think as of now the issue of cross-pollination is simply not there due to the physical distance of FIM and MAR. This will all change once Canada enters the District system as well as when NEFIRST(that is the correct name, right?) makes the switch.

[Bill_B]

Originally Posted by Ekcrbe

Then get out there, in the community, and raise some money! These teams have worked hard to get to where they are, and you have the ability to do the same, with a lot of hard work and dedication. A really good post I saw a while back from a member of 973 (I believe, and I wish I could find it) recalled when they really kicked it into high gear and became the force they are today. You can make up ground and compete with these guys, as long as you don't spend your time complaining about how you can't.

I think this is the post and thread to which you refer. It is one of those threads that needs extraction and study at team meetings. At least at those team meetings at which there is consensus about the possibility of learning something from other teams.

[PVCpirate]

Originally Posted by Racer26

Its just unfortunate they restricted it to "Has already won a 2013 regional" and not "Already qualified for CMP on a merit-based invitation". It means that 1241 and 4343 making Finalist Captain and Finalist 1st pick at GTRE this weekend, eventually being defeated by the "already qualified as 2012 Einstein Robots" 1114 and 2056, aren't invited to CMP.

It doesn't change your point, but I think your first statement in quotes should read "Has already qualified for CMP in 2013." (meaning winning say Chairman's at one regional and then winning a second regional opens a wildcard slot at the second regional)

[fox46]

A gold star for Mr.Lim

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

Atonomous is obviously frustrated..

Totally agree with this post. The reality of the trickle-down CMP qualifying hasn't hit me yet, but once it does I think it'll make competition in Ontario much more fun. Having been in FIRST since 2003, the idea of anyone but 1114, (excellent robot), and (24th-best robot) qualifying for champs on robot performance seems totally alien. It was discouraging trying to build a better robot, knowing that every improvement that takes you above 24th-best is likely to decrease your chances of CMP participation.

Combined with the blue banners brought home by travelling Ontario teams like 610, and Canada/Ontario should be very well represented at CMP this year :-)

Nothing in this post should be taken as a knock against 1114 and 2056. They're free to be unstoppably awesome each year, and now the rest of us in Ontario can also be rewarded for our intermittently-stoppable awesomeness too.

[CalTran]

Anyone happen to know if or when 2056 plans on releasing the information about, IIRC, Adversity? I'd love to get some specs on it.