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Unread 18-03-2013, 10:36
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

You know what confuses me about this thread? The timing. Didn't we just have our first climb+dump winner during week 3? 1806 was the #1 selection at winner at GKC (ahead of a team with a 7-disc autonomous).
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Unread 18-03-2013, 10:41
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by Bpk9p4 View Post
so if your robot can climb, dump, and shoot. how fast would your climber have to be to make it worth climbing and dumping?
Depends on your opponents and your allies.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 10:41
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

Not to sure what "matchmatical" is, but you may want to review your mathematics.

Last time I checked, 50 + 36 +12 = 98, and 36 +12 + 36 + 12 = 96.

Seems like 50 + 36 +12 > 36 + 12 + 36 + 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom line
It is a fairly simple matchmatical equation that comes doing to points / second.

Can your climber/dumper, plus 1 average shooter and a defender, beat 2 average shooters and a defender?

Score (climber) + Score (Shooter) = Score (Shooter) + Score (Shooter).

50 (climber) + 36 (teleop shooter) + 12 (auton shooter) < 36 (teleop shooter) + 12 (auton shooter) + 36 (teleop shooter) + 12 (auton shooter)

Or,

Climbing Team = 50+26+12 = 88
Shooting Team = 26+12+26+12 = 96 , at a very very rough first estimation.

Many climbers have sacrified auton for climbing and dumping. That more than accounts for their being out-scored.
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Last edited by 45Auto : 18-03-2013 at 10:46.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 10:44
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
You know what confuses me about this thread? The timing. Didn't we just have our first climb+dump winner during week 3? 1806 was the #1 selection at winner at GKC (ahead of a team with a 7-disc autonomous).
Our Climb+Dump was more of a backup plan than our first choice in strategy. Not to mention we can only climb for 20 points.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 10:58
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
You know what confuses me about this thread? The timing. Didn't we just have our first climb+dump winner during week 3? 1806 was the #1 selection at winner at GKC (ahead of a team with a 7-disc autonomous).
That would seem confusing, except that example is 1 Event out of 32 (although admittedly I haven't checked on the winners of all the events to see if that is the only one... but even if it's 2/32..).

I think a lot of us (myself included), thought that of the non-do-everything bots, the climber/dumper would be THE rockstar of the competitions. Now as people have pointed out, consistency seems to be what is failing the climbers and even the climb/dumpers. We've seen so few robots that climb for 30 every match. We've seen even fewer robots that can climb and dump even 75% of their matches (maybe only a couple?). Climbing is HARD. Much much harder than reliable shooting.

And I think that is what makes this analysis tough. We just don't have a lot of good examples of a consistent version of this type of robot yet.

However, I am wondering as teams improve their robots across the season, and as teams learn strategies to defend shooters, if this won't start changing. It is really really hard to defend a climber/dumper. Its much much easier to defend a shooter.

I'm curious to see if the average eliminations shooting scores actually increase or decrease as this season goes on. I wish I had time to run some of the numbers, as I bet there will be some really interesting trends. TBA is already showing the elims scores flattening, but we don't know if that includes improved auto, defended shooting, or improved climbing or what. I wonder what the next few weeks will show.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 11:01
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Care to explain this one? We had 3 shooters against 125 (233 wasn't shooting). This seems to be exactly the situation Jonathan and I have both explained. Their defender simply wasn't up to the task of playing good (clean) defense and didn't neutralize enough of our scoring in an appropriate manner.
I thought they had easily won the last match and if it wsan't for those penalties they would have had the blue banners.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 11:01
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
You know what confuses me about this thread? The timing. Didn't we just have our first climb+dump winner during week 3? 1806 was the #1 selection at winner at GKC (ahead of a team with a 7-disc autonomous).
1806 had a shooter though. I think some (most?) of us are analyzing the original question as "why aren't dedicated climb and dumpers winning?" If you can shoot as well that changes the question drastically since you can score 18 in autonomous and break the 50 point barrier in teleop easily.
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  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2013, 11:02
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by Swampdude View Post
I thought the 125 alliance would take it also. But I think 4451 would be more effective if they played some D in the first 30 seconds before they climb, although that puts them at risk. The 744/79/1772 Alliance played a dynamic D and O strategy that was just the right balance to slow down the 125 alliance. The 2 penalties at the end were unfortunate but that's the risk 233 was taking (and yes we should have picked em...)

I think a climber dumper that plays D at nationals could be huge when there are plenty of shooters to choose from. Reason is they get out of the way giving room for the shooters to work.
What shocks me is no one played D on them. They just let them go get their colored Frisbees and go to the pyramid and do their climb and no one bothered to even try to get in their way.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 11:16
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by Koko Ed View Post
What shocks me is no one played D on them. They just let them go get their colored Frisbees and go to the pyramid and do their climb and no one bothered to even try to get in their way.
I tried to get our alliance to do it, but our drive coach told me that our alliance came to the conclusion that 4451 climbed so fast that it was pointless to try and block them from doing it. That, and they had one of the fastest drivetrains at Orlando.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 11:18
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by dodar View Post
I tried to get our alliance to do it, but our drive coach told me that our alliance came to the conclusion that 4451 climbed so fast that it was pointless to try and block them from doing it. That, and they had one of the fastest drivetrains at Orlando.
At FLR 1559 climbed just as quickly and 48 attacked them twice before they latched on to the pyramid to keep them from executing the climb. You can't just let them do it.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 11:18
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by 45Auto View Post
Not to sure what "matchmatical" is, but you may want to review your mathematics.

Last time I checked, 50 + 36 +12 = 98, and 36 +12 + 36 + 12 = 96.

Seems like 50 + 36 +12 > 36 + 12 + 36 + 12.
You are correct. I made both a spelling and a mathematical error. Thank you for pointing that out.

So it would appear that both methods are extremely similar. Are the dumpers not getting their extra 20, or not climbing consistently for 30? Or are the shooters making more than 3 runs, or hitting more than 2 in autonomous consistently?

The FRC Miner data from Waterford is interesting. 1025, the only 30 point climber, has the most climbing points and an average autonomous. Their teleop score, however, is low enough that teams who shot well and had a consistent 10 point hang beat them. People who were scounting know that 1025 struggled to climb on the second day, reducing their climbing score somewhat. They still seeded 6th, proving that climbing robots can be competitive.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 11:28
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
You know what confuses me about this thread? The timing. Didn't we just have our first climb+dump winner during week 3? 1806 was the #1 selection at winner at GKC (ahead of a team with a 7-disc autonomous).
There was no 7-disk auto available -- we already have a 7-disk auto, and 3928 uses the same 7 disks we do. It's unfortunate that they broke & weren't available for the 2nd finals game; it would have been interesting to see what they could have done.

1806 was a shooter; climb & dump was an option that they rarely used. As Woolly points out, it's a 40-point possibility, not a primary strategy. The few times their full-court shooter was allowed to roam free they racked up very high scores. When they were blocked, 1806 still scored from the pyramid. Not as much as a dedicated pyramid shooter, but when combined with their autonomous scores enough to make them a solid #1 pick. The possibility of a dump at the end was a bonus of their selection; it was a serious consideration but not the primary reason we picked them.

There wasn't a single game in elims that 1986-1806-2457 won where climb and dump points were the margin of victory.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 11:47
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

I watched 4451 come out of the loading zone and zoom around the edge of the field while another team was tasked to block them missed. This was during quals I saw this and decided then if I had to play them I wouldn't bother wasting the defense unless I had a very fast and powerful defender. So I think 233 could have blocked them (which is why we needed them - and to get them off of us).
I saw a lot of matches where defenders just sat in the middle of the field waiting for their target to present itself, which was just a waste. If my 3rd bot isn't a strong defender I'd rather have it out of the way and climbing. 20-30 points is points no matter how you look at it, and if we can get another rep in due to a clear alley then its bonus. Seemed to me that defense usually blocked up things for both teams and we needed more room to run. Hopefully we left all our gremlins in Orlando and the pink curse is behind us.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 12:23
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

How many more teams do you think would have attempted the 30pt climb (and/or perfected it) if the "climb in succession" rule had not existed?
[In other words, how many more teams would have climbed if they would have been allowed to grab on to something higher and pulled up.]

I personally feel like this is the single rule that makes the whole climb process so hard to complete.
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Unread 18-03-2013, 12:25
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Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?

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Originally Posted by Jaxom View Post
There was no 7-disk auto available -- we already have a 7-disk auto, and 3928 uses the same 7 disks we do. It's unfortunate that they broke & weren't available for the 2nd finals game; it would have been interesting to see what they could have done.
There was a seven disc autonomous available, even if both can't be used simultaneously. Denying the opposition the chance to score those additional four discs is every bit as good as scoring them yourselves. Think 341 in Boston last year. 233's additional center bridge scoring didn't do them any good since 341 already scored those, but in picking them, Daisy removed their most significant competition for the center bridge, greatly reducing the odds that any other alliance would be able to hang with them during hybrid.
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