Breaking the Gameplay: One Sided

[Jrat47]

Has anyone found a way to break the game yet? In 2010 469 found a way to break the game by cycling balls back into their goal before they went back to the center of the field. They accomplished this with out moving the whole match. Does any one think that there is a way to make the game completely one sided and totally within the rules of the game this year? Does and one think that its possible and why?

[Chris is me]

This game doesn't seem to have a chokehold. The closest it seems you can get would be a full-court with some sort of crazy "unblockable" trajectory.

This game is strategically incredibly interesting, with all of the different robot archetypes creating a varied strategic "metagame" between different kinds of alliances. With each team having independent access to a fixed number of game pieces, a wide variety of scoring objectives, and a high reward end game, there just isn't that much potential for a single robot to virtually guarantee a match win independent of opponent actions.

[dodar]

I'd actually say the closest thing would be a high volume autonomous.

[JesseK]

2010 was a year of that type of thing in FIRST. There was a lock-out that was tough to do in FTC, but easy to win with once executed. It was tough because it required very good autonomous routines by both partners on the field. It also required LEGO Tyres on the wheels, and my FTC team was the only one who had them at Champs that year.

For this year:

78-point autonomous followed by 3 FCS's who pin any defensive robots while any single one of them gets to the slot. Need one of them to be able to PUSH, but only one is necessary. Probably best if that same bot can go under the pyramid. There's a good chance the 1 FCS that gets through can outscore a pyramid-cycler on the other alliance (even if a few get blocked) but that's wildly dependent upon shot accuracy of the FCS.

102-point autonomous followed by 3-robot defense. Maybe. Depends on the whole 'blockading the field' issue. This autonomous also requires that the opponents leave discs on the center line, which probably won't happen in elims during later week events.

A super alliance that gets 200 points (15-disc auton + 90 climb + 20 high dump) from autonomous and climb/dumping. They also dance Gangam Style for the first 60 seconds in teleop. Realistically, this one won't be seen -- alliance selections wouldn't let it happen even if there were enough capable 30-point climbers at a single event.

Statistically, these would win a great deal of matches, maybe. I haven't figured out an actual lock by definition though.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Statistically, these would win a great deal of matches, maybe. I haven't figured out an actual lock by definition though.

If we're going for near-unbeatable configurations of multiple robots, there's several ways I think the win can be virtually guaranteed this year. I think IRI will be a fascinating event this year for just this reason.

One of the easier powerful alliance configurations to assemble is a tall full court shooter combined with a quick, powerful ground loader (preferably 2-speed in this one) and a pure climber of any sort. If you can lock in 42 + 18 points in auto, and have a guaranteed 20 (ideally 50, but usually 40 at best so the FCS doesn't have to leave) points in hanging, that's 80-120 "uncontestable" points before you even start shooting in teleop. The tallest full court shooters can't be consistently stopped by just a net, if at least one partner is willing to set "picks" for them and keep the net out of the way. At the Championship level, I could see a very strong pure climber being able to play effective "offensive defense", while the ground loader just tries to ensure that more than half of all available discs are in your alliance's control.

The above alliance configuration was the one I was personally most afraid of at my team's regionals this year. We worked hard to select and strategize against it, but fortunately the strategy isn't too easy to pull off at many regionals with the relative lack of good ground loaders.

[Tomker]

Iv'e been thinking of one possible way of making it one sided, I think it's legal and doable but am not sure...
If some full court shooter could shoot a curved shot that will be directed towards the outside of the field and curve back inside and into the 2 point goal or even the 3 point goal it could be unblockable...
The reason I think it's legal is that the rule says that "ROBOTS may not intentionally eject DISCS from gameplay" and I do not think it's considered ejecting the discs, because they only leave the field for a split second and will stay ingame in case of a miss.
It should be unblockable because "ROBOTS may not contact anything outside of the FIELD", and the only "safe" point of contact (that is far enough from the shooting robot, but still reaches the disc's flying height) is out of the field.
Finally, it should be doable because iv'e seen more than one curved full court shooter, and there is a slight gap between the ends of the field and the net that is big enough to fit a disc. I even think that a minor contact with the net will not deflect the frisbees too much given the flight and spin direction...

[NotaJoke]

A robot could (in theory) redirect disks from the top of the pyramid (+80 inches), while another robot could shoot over defense from the protected loading zone. This would require two really specialized robots, which if designed might not even get the chance to play together.

Edit:
Or maybe an aircraft-carrier style robot could lift two 10-point hanging robots to 30 point, for a 40 point bonus. That would be fun to design.

[Chris is me]

I don't know if that trajectory would work well with the netting so close... I think the best possible trajectory would be facing the corner of your opponent's pyramid while still inside the loading station. Aim up, give your shot a bit of a curve, and then hook it into a 2 or 3 point goal. Far, FAR easier said than done.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I don't know if that trajectory would work well with the netting so close... I think the best possible trajectory would be facing the corner of your opponent's pyramid while still inside the loading station. Aim up, give your shot a bit of a curve, and then hook it into a 2 or 3 point goal. Far, FAR easier said than done.

I can get a pretty reliable hook shot when I'm throwing a frisbee... but then again, I can adjust what I'm doing on the fly to account for wind and other factors that can and do affect the flight.

The biggest problem with a hook shot is that it doesn't hook at the start, if you throw it for distance. It hooks closer to the end, in my experience. More of a fall off than a curve. If I'm throwing the shot illustrated earlier, it goes along the field side, possibly over the low goal, and then hooks into the high goal (or off the chains).

[Hoover]

I was thinking of a sort of "vacuum/pig-bot", that would do nothing but go around the field gobbling up free frisbees. It would deny the pickup bots. Even in Autonomous it could grab the Frisbees near the goals.

In teleop the driver would have to be more aggressive around the feeder stations as they tried to feed the pickup bots.

Then I read the rule that it is a foul violation per disk over 4. The robot could, near the end, dump the entire load into the 1 point slot. I didn't see where you don't get points for the extra Frisbees. But since a fouls is -3 points it would end up losing 2 points per Frisbee.

It could instead fling the entire contents at the 2 and/or 3 point goal hoping some of them would go in to make up for some of the fouls.

Seriously, they have this hole plugged with the 4 Frisbee rule.

An annoyance-bot could do this and end up last on the standings. Would there be any rule to disqualify it?

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by Hoover

An annoyance-bot could do this and end up last on the standings. Would there be any rule to disqualify it?

Intentionally breaking the rules can get you Yellow and Red Cards pretty quickly.

[Kevin Leonard]

The closest thing I've seen is 225's full-court shooter- but as was shown during Finals-1 at their regional- if they're kept from getting to the feeder station, they can't initiate their shooting.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by engunneer

Intentionally breaking the rules can get you Yellow and Red Cards pretty quickly.

Cirtainly. My post was in jest. I agree with Chris is me's post. We were in a semi-final with a full court shooter vs a 7 disk autonomous floor pickup bot and others. The whole field came to life. Action in the air and on the ground. I still haven't the words to descibe how I felt. The outcome of this game is so complex. One of the best years ever.

[Negative 9]

Now we need a robot that can do a full court hammer throw.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Negative 9

Now we need a robot that can do a full court hammer throw.

We spent several weeks trying to get a reliable hammer throw. If you throw it too fast, it never "flips", and when we slowed it down, we couldn't get a reliable enough trajectory. I assume we weren't the only team to have tried.