Bumper Restrictions

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I'm not talking about being within the rules, I'm talking about stretching them to the breaking point. Mounting a 10 pound steel plate to a bumper that has no real practical reason is violating the spirit of the rules.

And as far as your second point, in fact, is is the inspectors job to judge if a team is complying with the rules.

If the rules say they can do it then it is the inspector's job to pass them. Causing teams problems just because you don't like what they did within the spirit of the rules is wrong.

In my opinion (inspector at more than a number of events) our job is to inspect for adherence to the rules. Failing that, we inspect for adherence to the spirit of the rules. We ensure safety and fairness. Every team had the option to strap 10lbs of steel to their bumpers so it's completely fair.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

If the rules say they can do it then it is the inspector's job to pass them. Causing teams problems just because you don't like what they did within the spirit of the rules is wrong.

In my opinion (inspector at more than a number of events) our job is to inspect for adherence to the rules. Failing that, we inspect for adherence to the spirit of the rules. We ensure safety and fairness. Every team had the option to strap 10lbs of steel to their bumpers so it's completely fair.

While I certainly agree with the fact that inspectors should actively seek to pass robots that are in compliance with the rules, I do want to take a bit of issue with the final sentence.

Teams did not have the option to strap 10lbs of steel to their bumpers. Teams did have the option to design ridiculously heavy bumper mounts... but unless that mass is somehow involved in connecting the bumpers to the robot, it is not allowed under the bumper rules. It is a subtle difference, but not an insignificant one. To allow a team to just come along mid-competition and bolt ten pounds of steel onto their bumpers might be unfair to those teams who took the time to read the rules, assess their design options and then integrate heavy bumper mounts as a design choice.

I tend to agree that inspectors should interpret the rules to the team's benefit as much as possible... but there are limits.

Jason

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I ascribe to the philosophy that the inspectors are there to verify that teams are legal to compete and help teams get legal if they're not.

I agree with you on this, and I think most inspectors (unlike the one you reference later) agree.

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

[Description of inappropriate inspector behavior omitted]

That's terrible, and I'm glad you took the time to complain. I'm sure that many complaints against inspectors are unjustified (I'm *really* upset that you wouldn't let me use MDF as bumper backing) but I'm also sure that there are some legitimate complaints that don't get reported & therefore don't get addressed.

Originally Posted by Roger

Introducing the Van Halen contract and the no brown m&m's clause.

AWESOME! Thank you for the link; I'd never heard of this but it's a perfect example. I hope I don't have to pay you royalties every time I reference this.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I was using the verbiage in the quoted thread. I assumed it was hyperbole.

Originally Posted by dtengineering

While I certainly agree with the fact that inspectors should actively seek to pass robots that are in compliance with the rules, I do want to take a bit of issue with the final sentence.

Teams did not have the option to strap 10lbs of steel to their bumpers. Teams did have the option to design ridiculously heavy bumper mounts... but unless that mass is somehow involved in connecting the bumpers to the robot, it is not allowed under the bumper rules. It is a subtle difference, but not an insignificant one. To allow a team to just come along mid-competition and bolt ten pounds of steel onto their bumpers might be unfair to those teams who took the time to read the rules, assess their design options and then integrate heavy bumper mounts as a design choice.

I tend to agree that inspectors should interpret the rules to the team's benefit as much as possible... but there are limits.

Jason

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I was using the verbiage in the quoted thread. I assumed it was hyperbole.

Fair enough! I just had pictures of someone naievely reading one post and saying "It's okay to strap ten pounds of iron to the bumper! I read it on Chief Delphi."

But I like the example of the "thinnest 12 gauge wire I've ever seen". We had a similar issue in '06 when we used speaker wire for many of the longer wire runs (downstream of the speed controllers only, of course, so colour was not an issue). We were actually one gauge "over", using 10 AWG where 12 was required, etc.

The inspector didn't like the speaker wire one bit... and if it were easy to replace the wire we would have done so without complaint... but it was pretty "built in", so we asked if it would be okay to get the LRI's opinion. The LRI wasn't sure so he asked the tournament director. Eventually the question went all the way to FRC HQ, and came back on Friday morning that there was no rule against it, so it was legal... thus supporting the inspection credo that if it's not illegal or unsafe, then it's fair game, even if you don't like it. (Later the inspector apologized for the hassle and explained that he'd had some negative experiences with speaker wire when using it in a different application that made him feel it was unsuitable for FRC.)

Although it made for a stressful Thursday night, we did go on to win the Sportsmanship award at that event. I think it was due mainly to the kid's great efforts over Friday and Saturday... but it couldn't have hurt that we were polite and respectful during the whole inspection process Thursday despite our rather extreme concern at the potential of having to rip our entire machine apart, and said "Thank you for checking" rather than "Told ya so!" on Friday morning.

Jason

P.S. Haven't used speaker wire since... it's got nice soft insulation, and is fabulous to work with, but the benefit isn't worth the potential hassle.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by Jaxom

I hope I don't have to pay you royalties every time I reference this.

Well, all those brown m&m's will have to go somewhere...