Go to Post Students learn from, are inspired by, and emulate their mentors. A team with a solid mentor base helps to create a productive, inspired, and ultimately successful group of students. - Jared Russell [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 17:17
themccannman's Avatar
themccannman themccannman is offline
registered lurker
AKA: Jake McCann
FRC #3501
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 432
themccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Not going to get into a full OPR rant, but I will briefly mention something about this anecdote. Those OPR figures would only be accurate if those robots were 100% successful in their climbing attempts.
From what I've seen it looks like OPR accounts for the "average" number of hang points that a team will get per match, if they hang for 10 points 100% of the time their OPR will be higher than if they hang for 10 points 50% of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Ross View Post
What data did you use to determine it was 90% accurate?
"90% accuracy" was probably the wrong phrase for that. To elaborate, OPR ranking had a .9 correlation coefficient with robots actual offensive performance.

The main point that I've been trying to get across is that a good scouting system is irreplaceable, but if you don't have one, OPR is much better than having nothing. I think we can all agree on that.
__________________
All posts here are purely my own opinion.
2011-2015: 1678
2016: 846
2017 - current: 3501
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 17:24
MrForbes's Avatar
MrForbes MrForbes is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jim
FRC #1726 (N.E.R.D.S.)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 6,012
MrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by themccannman View Post
The main point that I've been trying to get across is that a good scouting system is irreplaceable, but if you don't have one, OPR is much better than having nothing. I think we can all agree on that.
I'm thinking we might use OPR as a major element of our scouting process for Championships. We will also have students scouting the teams, but probably won't scout every team every match.

Our crude 1-sheet-of-paper-per-team scouting during the AZ regional worked fine, and we we were also able to get corroborating scouting data from a friendly team.
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 19:31
Bwalker's Avatar
Bwalker Bwalker is offline
Registered User
FRC #1448 (Parsons Vikings)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Parsons, Kansas
Posts: 77
Bwalker has a spectacular aura aboutBwalker has a spectacular aura aboutBwalker has a spectacular aura about
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

What exactly does OPR stand for and what is it?
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 19:35
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,803
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwalker View Post
What exactly does OPR stand for and what is it?
Offensive Power Ranking.

It's an estimate of how much each team scores per match, or rather their point contribution to their alliance (on average).

The biggest problem with using solely OPR is that 1) it virtually ignores defensive players, and 2) it takes a bit of setup to run the numbers properly. (It also doesn't distinguish between how points are scored--if you're a 50-point climber and you pick a 50-point climber because they have a high OPR, you'll probably be blanked by the 50-point climber that picked a pair of shooter/defense robots that combined for 50 points.)
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 19:38
xSAWxBLADEx's Avatar
xSAWxBLADEx xSAWxBLADEx is offline
DaBears til 13 turned Free Agent 14
AKA: Michael Hawley
no team (Free Agent)
Team Role: Scout
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Berkley, MI
Posts: 359
xSAWxBLADEx will become famous soon enoughxSAWxBLADEx will become famous soon enough
Send a message via MSN to xSAWxBLADEx
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Offensive Power Ranking.

It's an estimate of how much each team scores per match, or rather their point contribution to their alliance (on average).

The biggest problem with using solely OPR is that 1) it virtually ignores defensive players, and 2) it takes a bit of setup to run the numbers properly. (It also doesn't distinguish between how points are scored--if you're a 50-point climber and you pick a 50-point climber because they have a high OPR, you'll probably be blanked by the 50-point climber that picked a pair of shooter/defense robots that combined for 50 points.)
That is why we use a pit scout/OPR combo.
__________________
2006-Palmetto Regional Champions with 11 and 1251 (MORT, TIGERS, BEARS, O MY!)
2007-Pittsburgh Regional Champions with 123 and 337 / Detroit Regional Champions with 123 and 903
2009-Traverse City District Competition Champions with 85 and 2645 / Traverse City District Competition Chairman's Award / Michigan State Championship Finalists with 1918 and 904 / Championship Finalist with 217 and 68
2013-Grand Blanc District Competition Champions with 33 and 1718

  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 20:00
Bwalker's Avatar
Bwalker Bwalker is offline
Registered User
FRC #1448 (Parsons Vikings)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Parsons, Kansas
Posts: 77
Bwalker has a spectacular aura aboutBwalker has a spectacular aura aboutBwalker has a spectacular aura about
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Offensive Power Ranking.

It's an estimate of how much each team scores per match, or rather their point contribution to their alliance (on average).

The biggest problem with using solely OPR is that 1) it virtually ignores defensive players, and 2) it takes a bit of setup to run the numbers properly. (It also doesn't distinguish between how points are scored--if you're a 50-point climber and you pick a 50-point climber because they have a high OPR, you'll probably be blanked by the 50-point climber that picked a pair of shooter/defense robots that combined for 50 points.)
Is that determined and managed by an individual team, or are the OPR maintained by an official source?
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 20:07
efoote868 efoote868 is offline
foote stepped in
AKA: E. Foote
FRC #0868
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 1,414
efoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Ed Law does a good job posting the results after each week of competition.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=115380

This question has been asked many times, the search function is your friend
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=114980

There's an executable available by Bongle, I think the last updated version was last year, but it still works for strict OPR and predicting matches.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=75272

EDIT:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=280
__________________
Be Healthy. Never Stop Learning. Say It Like It Is. Own It.

Like our values? Flexware Innovation is looking for Automation Engineers. Check us out!
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 20:10
Siri's Avatar
Siri Siri is offline
Dare greatly
AKA: 1640 coach 2010-2014
FRC #2641 (PCCR; Refs & RIs)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 1,632
Siri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Siri
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
(It also doesn't distinguish between how points are scored--if you're a 50-point climber and you pick a 50-point climber because they have a high OPR, you'll probably be blanked by the 50-point climber that picked a pair of shooter/defense robots that combined for 50 points.)
That's why if you're a 50-point climber (or anyone else, for that matter), you should also be looking at the separate auto, teleop and climb OPRs for your prospective picks. Rather difficult to make that mistake if you do.
__________________
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 21:23
themccannman's Avatar
themccannman themccannman is offline
registered lurker
AKA: Jake McCann
FRC #3501
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 432
themccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Offensive Power Ranking.
The biggest problem with using solely OPR is that 1) it virtually ignores defensive players, and 2) it takes a bit of setup to run the numbers properly. (It also doesn't distinguish between how points are scored--if you're a 50-point climber and you pick a 50-point climber because they have a high OPR, you'll probably be blanked by the 50-point climber that picked a pair of shooter/defense robots that combined for 50 points.)
It doesn't virtually ignore defensive robots, it completely does. Offensive Power Ranking is just that, a measure of a robots offensive contribution to their alliance. There is also a DPR (defensive power ranking) however it's wildly inaccurate and should be ignored. The main reason (aside form accuracy) why scouting is vastly more valuable than OPR is that it tells you why a robot performs the way it does which is absolutely necessary when considering a robot to fit a specific strategy. People should stop hating on OPR so much though, it does exactly what it's designed to do. It's not designed to replace your scouting system, so don't expect good results when you do rely on it for scouting.
__________________
All posts here are purely my own opinion.
2011-2015: 1678
2016: 846
2017 - current: 3501
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 21:37
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,803
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by themccannman View Post
People should stop hating on OPR so much though, it does exactly what it's designed to do. It's not designed to replace your scouting system, so don't expect good results when you do rely on it for scouting.
I have to ask, if OPR is not designed to replace a scouting system, then why did you suggest earlier that a team who was unsure of their scouting just pick based on OPR? Those two statements are not entirely compatible.

OPR does do what it's designed to do: tell you how much a team can expect to score. For alliance selection, though, I probably don't care how much my alliance can score.

What I care about is how big of a point differential my alliance can produce in my favor, which is not the same thing by any means. If that means that my really, really accurate full-court shooter has to be protected by a pair of brave little toasters, then that's what I'm going to pick (though I'll probably pick rather specialized brave little toasters, just to increase that differential). If that means that my 50-point climber needs some shooters to back it up, that's what I'm going to pick. Is there a full-court shooter somewhere in my likely road? I'm going to look at teams that either have a blocker already or that can add one quickly. This sort of thing is what OPR cannot tell you, because it quite simply is not designed to do that. But it's this sort of thing that can make or break an alliance.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 22:24
Bill_B Bill_B is offline
You cannot not make a difference
FRC #2170
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,099
Bill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond reputeBill_B has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

The OPR score also cannot show a trend in a team's scoring that will show up on a multi-line scoresheet that has been recorded for that team. A dragster is going much faster nearing the finish line than near the start line. No one bothers to calculate the average speeds at the NHRA events.
__________________
Nature's Fury FLL team 830 - F L eLements
FRC team 2170 - Titanium Tomahawks
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 22:30
Ether's Avatar
Ether Ether is offline
systems engineer (retired)
no team
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 1969
Location: US
Posts: 8,096
Ether has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by themccannman View Post
It doesn't virtually ignore defensive robots, it completely does. Offensive Power Ranking is just that, a measure of a robots offensive contribution to their alliance.
To be clear: If a robot's excellent defense boosts the offensive output of its two alliance partners, then that defensive robot will receive credit for the increased scoring during the OPR calculation.

For anyone interested in crunching numbers, there's an interesting discussion going on over here in re analysis of OPR's match results predictive efficacy.


  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 22:33
PVCpirate's Avatar
PVCpirate PVCpirate is offline
FRC Data Nerd
AKA: Anthony Jennings
FRC #1058 (PVC Pirates)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: May 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Londonderry NH
Posts: 669
PVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud ofPVCpirate has much to be proud of
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Looks like the OP's team ended up as the 7th alliance captain and lost in 2 matches to the 2 seed and eventual finalists.
__________________
My accomplishments with 1058:
2010 - Granite State Regoinal Winners, Galileo quarterfinalists, IRI quarterfinalists
2012 - GSR Chairman's Award winners
An incredible four years I will never forget
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 22:34
Jack_O Jack_O is offline
Stratemagizin'
AKA: John
no team
Team Role: Scout
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 25
Jack_O is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

I have one main concern with OPR. I only had time to briefly look over how it is calculated, but what I saw troubled me. One teams OPR is influenced by their alliance partners. This influence may not be very big, but it can add up. If a team goes to an event where the teams are generally "good", then their OPR will be higher. The opposite happens when the teams are generally bad. Most OPR stats are seperated by less than one point. As a result, one match with bad partners could screw everything up.

That is just my two cents. If I am wrong, or if I misunderstood something, please let me know.
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-03-2013, 22:38
themccannman's Avatar
themccannman themccannman is offline
registered lurker
AKA: Jake McCann
FRC #3501
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 432
themccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Alliance Selection Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I have to ask, if OPR is not designed to replace a scouting system, then why did you suggest earlier that a team who was unsure of their scouting just pick based on OPR? Those two statements are not entirely compatible.

OPR does do what it's designed to do: tell you how much a team can expect to score. For alliance selection, though, I probably don't care how much my alliance can score.

What I care about is how big of a point differential my alliance can produce in my favor, which is not the same thing by any means. If that means that my really, really accurate full-court shooter has to be protected by a pair of brave little toasters, then that's what I'm going to pick (though I'll probably pick rather specialized brave little toasters, just to increase that differential). If that means that my 50-point climber needs some shooters to back it up, that's what I'm going to pick. Is there a full-court shooter somewhere in my likely road? I'm going to look at teams that either have a blocker already or that can add one quickly. This sort of thing is what OPR cannot tell you, because it quite simply is not designed to do that. But it's this sort of thing that can make or break an alliance.

Because I never said that, from what he posted it sounded like they didn't have a scouting system, in which case I stand by my original statement,

Quote:
Originally Posted by themccannman View Post
The main point that I've been trying to get across is that a good scouting system is irreplaceable, but if you don't have one, OPR is much better than having nothing.
OPR is relatively accurate for finding powerful offensive teams, and nothing else. The rest of your post seems to reiterate what I said previously,
Quote:
Originally Posted by themccannman View Post
The main reason (aside form accuracy) why scouting is vastly more valuable than OPR is that it tells you why a robot performs the way it does which is absolutely necessary when considering a robot to fit a specific strategy. People should stop hating on OPR so much though, it does exactly what it's designed to do.
The one thing that I would like to clarify is this: if you are scouting for a robot that scores a lot of points, OPR is a relatively good measurement, if you're looking for a robot to do anything else other than score, OPR is the last thing you want to rely on.

EDIT: also Ether is correct, if a robot is playing phenomenal counter-defense it will boost their OPR.
__________________
All posts here are purely my own opinion.
2011-2015: 1678
2016: 846
2017 - current: 3501

Last edited by themccannman : 25-03-2013 at 22:41.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:27.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi