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Unread 31-03-2013, 16:54
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

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Originally Posted by nukemknight View Post
Yep, I talked with sanddrag before creating this as to not hijack his thread. Things tend to be overlooked when people don't read the entire thread:

Petition to FIRST to stop encouraging teams to shout "Robot!"
I'd rather sign a letter being sent to FIRST Headquarters, rather than an internet petition. I feel that FIRST may not even be aware of the issue, and sending a letter addressing the concerns and asking for action is a lot more convincing.

Or maybe even ask Frank to read up on this thread would be just as good since we have all "signed" our support already.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 17:25
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

I don't want to get in any heated debates or anything, I'm just respectfully giving my opinion. Is yelling robot really this big of an issue? If you find the need to yell it, go ahead, if not that's fine too. Obviously be polite, i.e. don't yell every two seconds and if some don't here you politely say excuse me or whatever. But in general yelling robot is an effective system. Often teams need to get too and from matches fast so they can make schedule, fix problems, and perform necessary operations. I don't see this as a large issue.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 17:27
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

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Originally Posted by Tetraman View Post
I'd rather sign a letter being sent to FIRST Headquarters, rather than an internet petition.
How would you suggest we gather everyone together to sign a physical letter, supposing that we want to get this to FIRST before the Championship?
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Unread 31-03-2013, 17:43
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

I do not believe that the primary issue is "to yell or not to yell." Rather, it is an issue of space.

Really, the pit area should be large enough to allow for a robots-only lane. In Seattle this weekend, there were times when walking through the pits (withour without a robot in tow!) was difficult. At times, we were working to support a rookie team half-way across the pit area from us and needed to transport drills, hacksaws and long pieces of L-Channel. It really was not safe to do so through that mob.

One of the main goals of FIRST is to promote technology and we like to do so by inviting the public. In doing so, we should have the space to accommodate the guests - without running them over with robots in a rush to get into queue.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 17:55
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

2008 is when I remember being "escorted" in Atlanta; I don't remember the practice in 2006.

I can attest to the loudness of Boilermaker Regional. To give you some perspective, the regional takes place inside the Armory; you can hear the cheering within (during eliminations) from two blocks away, while you can hear gunfire within from about a block away (yes, it is a shooting range.)


I think a bigger issue than shouting ROBOT is the sheer number of people inside the pits. I think FIRST would do well to have signs posted "NO LOITERING IN THE PITS" next to the signs requiring safety glasses. Until that happens, ALL teams would do well to explain to their members and visitors that the pits are dangerous, crowded, and not a good place to be if you don't have a specific reason to be there.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 18:07
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

I very much disagree with the idea of limitting pit access. The pits are the best place to come and interact with students, see the robots up close and really learning what goes into them. As I lead a field trip of fourth graders around, I noticed their fascination with their close-up view of robots and they loved watching HS kids making repairs. They REALLY loved collecting buttons, etc. For them, it was their coolest field trip ever - something they will never forget - talking about inspiring another generation of engineers! Instead, we need to focus on doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep them safe from teh masses we invite to the competitions.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 18:25
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

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Originally Posted by MrJohnston View Post
I very much disagree with the idea of limitting pit access. The pits are the best place to come and interact with students, see the robots up close and really learning what goes into them. As I lead a field trip of fourth graders around, I noticed their fascination with their close-up view of robots and they loved watching HS kids making repairs. They REALLY loved collecting buttons, etc. For them, it was their coolest field trip ever - something they will never forget - talking about inspiring another generation of engineers! Instead, we need to focus on doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep them safe from teh masses we invite to the competitions.
I agree that primary access limitations should come out of the teams' allocations rather than visitors. Or rather, the teams' pits themselves. I'd be willing to get that if we enforced having whoever was in a specific pit actually in that pit--with any volume reductions intended to come out of that teams' members or setup--a lot of this issue would go away. Instead, 'safety' seems to have degenerated into spectacle. (That doesn't downplay the need for coordinating traffic flow and maybe some larger tour groups, but hopefully not to the point of damaging FIRST's mission or image.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Brinza View Post
I directly confronted a safety advisor who ordered my student to wear gloves while operating a drill press. I told my student to stop work, but not put gloves on. Then asked the safety advisor to send the lead safety advisor to our pit to explain how wearing gloves was in any way safe around a drill press. The original safety advisor returned a few minutes later and apologized. I wouldn't want a student to lose a hand by having the glove get wrapped into the drill. I would hope safety advisors are correctly briefed on important issues and not on how to create more chaos in the pits.
I should have done this. We once had one harass us so much about this that we didn't get a chance to finish before our next match (we only had a few minutes as it was). It's sad when such an important and generally professional and helpful volunteer cohort gets such a bad rap due to poor training.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 18:37
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

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Originally Posted by MrJohnston View Post
I very much disagree with the idea of limitting pit access. The pits are the best place to come and interact with students, see the robots up close and really learning what goes into them. As I lead a field trip of fourth graders around, I noticed their fascination with their close-up view of robots and they loved watching HS kids making repairs. They REALLY loved collecting buttons, etc. For them, it was their coolest field trip ever - something they will never forget - talking about inspiring another generation of engineers! Instead, we need to focus on doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep them safe from teh masses we invite to the competitions.
The culprits who cause crwoded pits aren't normally spectators or media or local groups coming to see what's going on. It's normally students from the same team using the pit as a social haven. I'm fine with people who don't normally see what goes on behind the bumpers looking in the pits for a few minutes and asking questions, because they are genuinely curious, and usually are polite enough to make room for other robots. It's when there are multitudes of other team members who choose to swarm the pit of their team and also take up all of the aisle that it's an issue.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 19:12
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

Limiting pit access is not the answer. Something to consider is that every event is different. I've been to competitions where pits are smaller and more cramped to others with very spacious aisles and pits and everything in between. I would be upset if my regional event limited pit access to x individuals per team when I could register for another event and have no restrictions. We can have about 6-8 people working in our pit (and contained in the 10x10 space) and have several more pit scouting or checking out other robots for their own enjoyment at any given time. It would also require a very organized and staffed volunteer system to put in place. I also don't the other xx individuals on my team feel excluded from the pits because they haven't been given the magical pass.

The answer is teams managing their team members. A proper pit manager (whether student, coach, mentor, etc) should make sure their team isn't spilling out of their pit and has a safe number of people. Everyone needs to police themselves to understand when they are needed in the pit area and when they are just in the way. Teams also need to design workable pit spaces. At every regional there are always those teams whose pit decorations and setup take up most of the 10x10 space meaning workers spill into the aisle and anyone who needs to ask a questions must do so from the aisle. Oddly enough those are also the teams with the most bodies around their pit areas. Oh well!

I think FIRST should have 1-2 volunteers per event whose job it is to walk around the pit and address traffic issues. If it becomes part of our culture to keep aisles clear we won't be having these problems.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 20:06
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

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Originally Posted by BrendanB View Post

The answer is teams managing their team members. Everyone needs to police themselves to understand when they are needed in the pit area and when they are just in the way. Teams also need to design workable pit spaces. At every regional there are always those teams whose pit decorations and setup take up most of the 10x10 space meaning workers spill into the aisle and anyone who needs to ask a questions must do so from the aisle. Oddly enough those are also the teams with the most bodies around their pit areas. Oh well!

I think FIRST should have 1-2 volunteers per event whose job it is to walk around the pit and address traffic issues. If it becomes part of our culture to keep aisles clear we won't be having these problems.
Couldn't agree more!

Teams should be limiting the number of people around their own pit.
People looking around, talking to teams and checking out robots I don't see as a big issue, as long as they are mindful of their surroundings. But you really shouldn't have people hanging around the pits who aren't actively working on the robot, talking to judges, or mentors supervising.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 20:11
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

Manage your own pit.

I vote, yes, stop yelling Robot.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 21:11
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

100x this thread. At the Buckeye Regional this past weekend, I literally cringed every time I heard someone belt out "ROBOT". It's a robotics competition, we know. When someone from our team began to do it, I would quickly mention to him/her to maybe say "Excuse us, please".
When we did that, a positive response came forth. Instead of people scrambling to move, as I concluded is the average reaction to hearing yells of mechanical entities moving forth in the aisle, people calmly stepped aside and said "No problem", to which we replied "Thank you".
It's not about letting everyone know that YOU are coming through, you're just taking safe and calm precautions to get to where you're going while preventing headaches and panic.

On the other side of things, it is a sense of tradition that would be lost to history. Then again, so did personalized, team bumpers, and reserving seats in arenas.

The shouting of "ROBOT" is like a cowbell at Cross Country races, you hate the sound so much, especially when you're not running. But when you leave the race, or the season ends, you miss it.

However, I, too, vote in favor to end it. Or at least reduce the possibility of it happening.
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Unread 31-03-2013, 21:21
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

Signed. There are more effective means of clearing a path, the best to be have someone who stands 5 feet or so in front of the cart tapping peoples shoulders as a warning.

After a short time at competitions hearing about how a robot is moving the entire competition away from where you are, the next time you hear it behind you, you tend to ignore it... Its pretty bad how by the end of the first day, what you use to identify movement of heavy robots are generally ignored because its hard to tell where they are coming from when they are all the same loudness.

I find the best is to be just a bit on the quiet side. Its so different from everything else that it catches the attention better.

Also, you may want to add a limit on the DJ's volume, because if its too loud, its difficult to hear yourself think let alone hearing "Excuse me, I have a robot behind me."
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Unread 31-03-2013, 21:53
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

I agree that teams need to work on keeping their kids from crowding around the pit.... I have a team of nearly 100 students and can attest that it is possible - albeit difficult at times. (When the robot has an accident, for instance, kids naturally want to see for themselves what happened.) We do chase them away (back to the stands) telling them that a runner (usually me) will come to the stands with a full update as soon as the issue is diagnosed. In order to help with this we: Volunteer for every single job we can (safety goggles, FLL judge, field reset, etc.); Over-scout, assigning very specific tasks for students; formally organizing cheering. As there is no limit to the number of kids who can cheer at once, our students *always* have something to do.

We very much do encourage our kdis to visit everybody else's bit as it helps them to ask questions about the engineering behind other teams' robots and build communication skills - something that some of our more mathematically-minded kids can use to improve. It would be shameful to end this practice.

The biggest thing we need is a venue that can handle us. In Seattle on both Friday and Saturday, we had a problem in that the stands completely filled (aside from a few seats from which the field could not be seen), the aisle between the stands and the field became overly-crowded and there was not anywhere to go.
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Unread 01-04-2013, 08:58
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Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT

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Originally Posted by Tetraman View Post
I'd rather sign a letter being sent to FIRST Headquarters, rather than an internet petition. I feel that FIRST may not even be aware of the issue, and sending a letter addressing the concerns and asking for action is a lot more convincing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Yes to all three. I would actually start out with the third one, pointing out that "safety" advisors are actually advocating practices that either hinder safety or do not advance it, in addition to actual safe practices. (And be specific.) Actually, I'd be sure to point out that it's only at some events, so there is distinct inconsistency. Then I'd cast the first two as better alternatives to one of the issues discussed previously, and note the need for better training on other items. I just think that that order makes better logical sense, better flow, that sort of thing.
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Originally Posted by ebarker View Post
Where do I sign up ?

When someone yells 'ROBOT'

I want to say "oh look, a robot ! bless your heart"
Quote:
[and so on]
Question: are we all serious about this? Something like

We are writing to you today as a group of concerned mentors and volunteers. It has come to our attention that some teams are receiving advice from safety advisors that either hinders or does not advance safety. Though there is considerable variation between events, we are concerned that some competitions have begun to advocate unsafe practices or reward spectacle, potentially at the expense of safety. Here are a few examples:

• Requiring teams to yell “Robot!” when relocating, despite the contribution to chaos and dangerous noise levels in the pits. It is additionally startling and distasteful to the general public and desensitizing to teams, while a simple “please excuse us” has proven effective at many other events.
• Rewarding or abetting teams that engage in this and similar “spectacle” practices (such as stopping all traffic or attempting to control intersections) that have minimal if not negative safety consequences.
• Requiring the use of gloves in situations contrary to OSHA standards (for instance while operating small band saws), or mandating other non-standard or even unsafe practices. This can create very serious safety hazards for both teams and visitors.

As an alternative, we propose that safety advisors across all events reexamine the safety value of the practices they support, and ensure they are advocating OSHA standards correctly. In addition, we support the use of a polite escort in front of teams’ robots during transit in order to request specific people to move as required. For situations in which the pits are overly crowded, we suggest the safety advisors routinely remind teams that all equipment, personnel and visitors remain in their pit area, and that any overflow is best remedied by limiting equipment or team members (so as not to impact visitors’ access to FIRST).
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