Who is going to be on Einstein?

[c.aldridge]

Originally Posted by dodar

1. Corner-to-Pyramid
2. FCS
3. Ground Pickup

You will not win this year unless you go full offense.

I don't necessarily agree with that. The number 1 alliance at Alamo did not advance to finals with their full offensive team. They were composed of:
1. 1477 with a guaranteed 3 frisbee auto and tried to get the middle 4
2. 624 with a 5-7 frisbee auto
3. 457 with a 3 frisbee auto

They started the semis with 70+ pts and still lost against a quick shooter from 4063, 2789 playing defense and allowing 2468 to shoot full court. It was close, but the primarily offensive team was upset.

Also just realized you were at Alamo so you were able to see this occur.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by c.aldridge

I don't necessarily agree with that. The number 1 alliance at Alamo did not advance to finals with their full offensive team. They were composed of:
1. 1477 with a guaranteed 3 frisbee auto and tried to get the middle 4
2. 624 with a 5-7 frisbee auto
3. 457 with a 3 frisbee auto

They started the semis with 70+ pts and still lost against a quick shooter from 4063, 2789 playing defense and allowing 2468 to shoot full court. It was close, but the primarily offensive team was upset.

The #1 at Alamo wasnt full offense and you cannot honestly compare Alamo to Einstein and Champs. Imagine giving 1986/1806 or 2056/1114 a capable ground pickup or FCS. Seeing as we saw the 1114/2056/FCS at GTRE, they threw up like 230. And that was just a FCS that sprayed and prayed and played pretty much to just feed 2056.

[c.aldridge]

Originally Posted by dodar

The #1 at Alamo wasnt full offense and you cannot honestly compare Alamo to Einstein and Champs. Imagine giving 1986/1806 or 2056/1114 a capable ground pickup or FCS. Seeing as we saw the 1114/2056/FCS at GTRE, they threw up like 230. And that was just a FCS that sprayed and prayed and played pretty much to just feed 2056.

I would say they were fully offensive because 457 ended up shooting at times and did not play absolute defense. I also understand Alamo was not on the level of Einstein, just that the fully offensive team will potentially fail. Slowing down the other team in this game, unless they are nimble and fit under the pyramid, can be very easy if you allow yourself the opportunity. I see it from last year, although game object deprivation cannot be accomplished this year, slowing down the other team by playing defense took 16's alliance to the top.

[StAxis]

I think that the ideal alliance would have very close to the setup we had with our winning alliance at South Florida (180-1902-1251)

1. Full court shooter capable of pyramid shooting in case of a "SPAM Filter" (84 inch blocker named after one made by a team trying to stop 180's shooter)
2. Cycling pyramid shooter
3. Defense and Floor pickup

Essentially the full court and pyramid shooter score until they run out of discs (Generally with 55-50 seconds to go) while the third defends, at that point the two offensive robots defend and if one has pickup they go to do that along with the third robot. The other switches to defense.
At least one must have floor pickup capable of 7 disc autonomous.
Preferably one offensive bot has a 50 point climb.

The winning alliance will have to be a very versatile alliance capable of playing 3 robot offense or full defense in order to counter the strategies of whatever team they play against.

In order to win matches you do not have to score your maximum number of points, you just have to make the score difference a maximum, which is the reason the 180-25-16 alliance did so well. They prevented their opponents from scoring quickly and maximized their ability to score quickly that is the one thing that will always remain true no matter what game.

I'm willing to bet Dean Kamen will be on the Einstein field this year.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence

I'm willing to bet Dean Kamen will be on the Einstein field this year.

Try betting against this, internet.

I'm going with Walt Havenstein.

[Bdf809]

as of right now my pick would be:

An extremely efficient slot loader with a good climber

A good floor collector that can shoot extremely well or shoots decently and has a good climber

And a defensive robot to stop slot feeders and/or block slot shooters

My Current dream alliance then would be:

1114, 254, and a solely defensive bot (likely with a 10 pt hang)

-or-

1114, 987 or 2056, and a 30 pt climber (maybe a defensive bot if they can defend well enough to make up for the 20-30 pt difference in climb points)

[MrJohnston]

It's all about match-ups. For instance:
A really good, tall full-court shooter can put up 140 points single match single-handedly if undefended. (18 pt autonomous, 41/51 scored disks from the feeder). With nothing more than partners, each with 18 point autonomous routines each, we're looking at nearly 180 points. If either can pick up disks, we'd be looking at scores in the 200's.

For the most part, you will need to defend against the FCS if you want to beat them. How? Easy, right? Put up an 84" blocker... However,
1) If the FCS has a strong drive train, you will need one, too - unless you want to be pushed across the autoline, incurring pentalities or lowering the shield allowing it to shoot.
2) If the FCS has mechanum wheels, you will need something similar in order to stay in front of it as it goes to the other side of the pyramid to shoot.
3) If the FCS has something in between... it might be able to beat you both ways.

Of course, there are other ways to deal with the tall FCS - such as not letting it get to the protected feeder with a short, nimble bot - or two, playing tag team. Taller robots are generally not nearly as nimble as shorter bots and have to be careful - lest they fall - and have a major disadvantage in that they cannot go under the pyramids.

In other words, no matter what you have, there is a way around it. I don't know of many teams able to change out a drive train between matches based on their next opponents...

I would expect that they key to making it to Einstein is to have three robots that each do a couple of things very, very well and whose abilities complement one-another. Moreover, they must have very good drivers and coaches who can make changes quickly. Plus, they must have a strategy coach who understands the strenghts and weakensses of both teams can can exploit them.

[waialua359]

Pure defenders will not make Einstein.

Any robot that can attempt to shoot 3 discs minimum during autonomous and hang for a minimum of 10 points, can play defense and/or add a mechanism to block full-court shots. Robots who shoot 3 discs and can hang for 10 are dime a dozen, and in divisions where there are approximately 100 per, you should easily find 24 that meet the minimum criteria.
I'm still not sold on pure Full Court shooters for Einstein.
If a robot is solely used to block a FCS, then although that particular robot is no longer focused on scoring, neither is the FCS who becomes ineffective.

Manueverable and quick robots that can also go under the pyramid is key to this game in avoiding defense. The pyramid is the best pick and roll partner you can have.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Pure defenders will not make Einstein.

.

No Peacock?

[Siri]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

I would expect that they key to making it to Einstein is to have three robots that each do a couple of things very, very well and whose abilities complement one-another. Moreover, they must have very good drivers and coaches who can make changes quickly. Plus, they must have a strategy coach who understands the strenghts and weakensses of both teams can can exploit them.

My money's on this ^^

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

For the most part, you will need to defend against the FCS if you want to beat them. How? Easy, right? Put up an 84" blocker... However,
1) If the FCS has a strong drive train, you will need one, too - unless you want to be pushed across the autoline, incurring pentalities or lowering the shield allowing it to shoot.

Actually, at least how they were calling it at CT, the FCS would receive the technical foul in this situation. That strategy was determined to be "forcing the other alliance to get a penalty".

2) If the FCS has mechanum wheels, you will need something similar in order to stay in front of it as it goes to the other side of the pyramid to shoot.

This doesn't work. FCSes take time to line up, and as soon as it leaves the protected zone it can be rammed indefinitely.

I honestly do not think an FCS is a hard requirement for Einstein. A 7-disc floor loader (or at least extra points) is far more important, and all three robots need to score in auto. I think for that reason, 3 of the 4 alliances are guaranteed to have a floor loader on them. From there, a triple volume offense strategy can actually stay competitive versus an FCS / rebounder / defender + hang combination.

You want as much offense as possible with as many quick "extra" points as possible this year, either in the form of a complex autonomous or a high hang. That's not to say there won't be plenty of D, but everyone should have scoring ability for maximum versatility.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Actually, at least how they were calling it at CT, the FCS would receive the technical foul in this situation. That strategy was determined to be "forcing the other alliance to get a penalty".



This doesn't work. FCSes take time to line up, and as soon as it leaves the protected zone it can be rammed indefinitely.

I honestly do not think an FCS is a hard requirement for Einstein. A 7-disc floor loader (or at least extra points) is far more important, and all three robots need to score in auto. I think for that reason, 3 of the 4 alliances are guaranteed to have a floor loader on them. From there, a triple volume offense strategy can actually stay competitive versus an FCS / rebounder / defender + hang combination.

You want as much offense as possible with as many quick "extra" points as possible this year, either in the form of a complex autonomous or a high hang. That's not to say there won't be plenty of D, but everyone should have scoring ability for maximum versatility.

* It sounds like the referees need to communicate across the events... The rationale for not callling the technical on the FCS was basically this: If a 60" robot were attempting to block the FCS and the FCS pushed it across the autoline to open up a shot, there woudl be no foul. However, shoudl that 60" robot, between matches, suddenly duct tape a pool noodle on it's top, it would suddenly be illegal to shove it out of the way. Moreover, if the FCS attempted to go around the "pool noodled defender,' it risked either hitting the pyramid or knocking Pool Noodle into the pyramid, incurring fouls. This effectively meant that the 84" defender could contorl the entire right side of the court.... This seemed unreasonable - giving a little too much to the "power of the pool noodle." The judgment was made that, so long as the FCS was tryign to open up a shot, it had a right to try to clear the other robot out without worrying about commiting a foul.

* As for how long a FCS takes to line up, that really depends on the robot and driver. I saw 1425 in Central Washington slide 3' to its left and hit a pair of three-pointers in a period of about five seconds -with the biggeest delay being in the firing mechanism. The first shot was off in less than two seconds. 948 can line up for several different shots just as quickly. Both robots' biggest delay is when they try to line up perfectly such that they are in line with the feeder *and* the three point goal at teh same time - this is much trickier than just lining up with the three pointer.

Is a FCS necessary for Einstein? No. No particular robot is. However, a good FCS is brutal weapon that can certainly help.

[tickspe15]

In Seattle a foul was not called against the fcs if there were Frisbees in the hopper for a pyramid run. What cpr(can't remember number) did was put a retractable stick out the front of their robot so that a defender could not get close enough to block shots without a technical foul

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by tickspe15

In Seattle a foul was not called against the fcs if there were Frisbees in the hopper for a pyramid run. What cpr(can't remember number) did was put a retractable stick out the front of their robot so that a defender could not get close enough to block shots without a technical foul

We asked the ref about doing that, too... However, he said that, should the stick get inside another robot and, say, strike its electrical board, it would be a technical on teh FCS, so we chose not to do that.