Who is going to be on Einstein?

[c.aldridge]

Originally Posted by dodar

The #1 at Alamo wasnt full offense and you cannot honestly compare Alamo to Einstein and Champs. Imagine giving 1986/1806 or 2056/1114 a capable ground pickup or FCS. Seeing as we saw the 1114/2056/FCS at GTRE, they threw up like 230. And that was just a FCS that sprayed and prayed and played pretty much to just feed 2056.

I would say they were fully offensive because 457 ended up shooting at times and did not play absolute defense. I also understand Alamo was not on the level of Einstein, just that the fully offensive team will potentially fail. Slowing down the other team in this game, unless they are nimble and fit under the pyramid, can be very easy if you allow yourself the opportunity. I see it from last year, although game object deprivation cannot be accomplished this year, slowing down the other team by playing defense took 16's alliance to the top.

[ErvinI]

Originally Posted by dodar

Seeing as we saw the 1114/2056/FCS at GTRE, they threw up like 230. And that was just a FCS that sprayed and prayed and played pretty much to just feed 2056.

Waterloo, not GTRE .

I personally don't agree with a full out offensive team, especially when one of those robots is a FCS. When you are limited to 45 discs + floor pick-up your alliance will starve itself before the end of the match due to your FCS' ability to unload every few seconds. Instead, an "enforcer" could be used to protect the FCS from any blockers. After all, the maximum height of a FCS will always be shorter than the maximum height of a defender. Once the FCS has don't its job, the defender has the time to do its climb, preferably a climb-and-dump or just a 30.

Therefore, an alliance that could easily make Einstein is:

1. A tall full-court shooter that is relatively accurate.
2. A floor pick-up robot that can clean up any misses and shoot 7 discs in autonomous.
3. A quick climber with a drivetrain strong enough to hold up against robots trying to go through it. Preferably with dumping capabilities.

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by dodar

The #1 at Alamo wasnt full offense and you cannot honestly compare Alamo to Einstein and Champs. Imagine giving 1986/1806 or 2056/1114 a capable ground pickup or FCS. Seeing as we saw the 1114/2056/FCS at GTRE, they threw up like 230. And that was just a FCS that sprayed and prayed and played pretty much to just feed 2056.

There also wasn't very much defense being played at GTRE.

[StAxis]

I think that the ideal alliance would have very close to the setup we had with our winning alliance at South Florida (180-1902-1251)

1. Full court shooter capable of pyramid shooting in case of a "SPAM Filter" (84 inch blocker named after one made by a team trying to stop 180's shooter)
2. Cycling pyramid shooter
3. Defense and Floor pickup

Essentially the full court and pyramid shooter score until they run out of discs (Generally with 55-50 seconds to go) while the third defends, at that point the two offensive robots defend and if one has pickup they go to do that along with the third robot. The other switches to defense.
At least one must have floor pickup capable of 7 disc autonomous.
Preferably one offensive bot has a 50 point climb.

The winning alliance will have to be a very versatile alliance capable of playing 3 robot offense or full defense in order to counter the strategies of whatever team they play against.

In order to win matches you do not have to score your maximum number of points, you just have to make the score difference a maximum, which is the reason the 180-25-16 alliance did so well. They prevented their opponents from scoring quickly and maximized their ability to score quickly that is the one thing that will always remain true no matter what game.

I'm willing to bet Dean Kamen will be on the Einstein field this year.

[Bdf809]

as of right now my pick would be:

An extremely efficient slot loader with a good climber

A good floor collector that can shoot extremely well or shoots decently and has a good climber

And a defensive robot to stop slot feeders and/or block slot shooters

My Current dream alliance then would be:

1114, 254, and a solely defensive bot (likely with a 10 pt hang)

-or-

1114, 987 or 2056, and a 30 pt climber (maybe a defensive bot if they can defend well enough to make up for the 20-30 pt difference in climb points)

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence

I'm willing to bet Dean Kamen will be on the Einstein field this year.

Try betting against this, internet.

I'm going with Walt Havenstein.

[MrJohnston]

It's all about match-ups. For instance:
A really good, tall full-court shooter can put up 140 points single match single-handedly if undefended. (18 pt autonomous, 41/51 scored disks from the feeder). With nothing more than partners, each with 18 point autonomous routines each, we're looking at nearly 180 points. If either can pick up disks, we'd be looking at scores in the 200's.

For the most part, you will need to defend against the FCS if you want to beat them. How? Easy, right? Put up an 84" blocker... However,
1) If the FCS has a strong drive train, you will need one, too - unless you want to be pushed across the autoline, incurring pentalities or lowering the shield allowing it to shoot.
2) If the FCS has mechanum wheels, you will need something similar in order to stay in front of it as it goes to the other side of the pyramid to shoot.
3) If the FCS has something in between... it might be able to beat you both ways.

Of course, there are other ways to deal with the tall FCS - such as not letting it get to the protected feeder with a short, nimble bot - or two, playing tag team. Taller robots are generally not nearly as nimble as shorter bots and have to be careful - lest they fall - and have a major disadvantage in that they cannot go under the pyramids.

In other words, no matter what you have, there is a way around it. I don't know of many teams able to change out a drive train between matches based on their next opponents...

I would expect that they key to making it to Einstein is to have three robots that each do a couple of things very, very well and whose abilities complement one-another. Moreover, they must have very good drivers and coaches who can make changes quickly. Plus, they must have a strategy coach who understands the strenghts and weakensses of both teams can can exploit them.

[waialua359]

Pure defenders will not make Einstein.

Any robot that can attempt to shoot 3 discs minimum during autonomous and hang for a minimum of 10 points, can play defense and/or add a mechanism to block full-court shots. Robots who shoot 3 discs and can hang for 10 are dime a dozen, and in divisions where there are approximately 100 per, you should easily find 24 that meet the minimum criteria.
I'm still not sold on pure Full Court shooters for Einstein.
If a robot is solely used to block a FCS, then although that particular robot is no longer focused on scoring, neither is the FCS who becomes ineffective.

Manueverable and quick robots that can also go under the pyramid is key to this game in avoiding defense. The pyramid is the best pick and roll partner you can have.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Pure defenders will not make Einstein.

.

No Peacock?

[themccannman]

Awfully glad we went with a floor pick up seems to be turning out to be a very desirable attribute. After playing a match with 1662 (feeder station pick up) and scoring 131 disc points collectively with them I absolutely agree that having a feeder station/ground pick up alliance combination is a force to be reckoned with, not to mention 987 and 254 who with 2 ground pickups broke the 200 point mark several matches in a row. It seems that those strategies complement each other better than almost any other. A full court shooter has the potential to either destroy the competition or get shut down very easily without an assisting counter-defense teammate. Whether they get blocked our not will decide their matches. I also think that having two 30 point climbers on an alliance also gives a bigger advantage than people have been saying as it is at least 60 more almost-unblockable points every single match without including the potential for an additional 20 point dump. If the other alliance is all 10 point climbers they have to be leading by 60 points at the buzzer just to match the other teams score. Aside from offense I've seen some defensive teams such as 294 at CVR completely shut down the opposing offense. However, the defensive role this year can be filled very easily by any fast robot with a good driver; meaning that we will probably be seeing a couple of alliances made of 3 offensive powerhouses that have the versatility to play any role during the match.

[bardd]

I don't think any estimation we make can hold before division lists are published. You have to look at every division independantly and only then you can try and guess which robots and which types of robots can qualify.
For example, if you get a division with lots of canadians defenders have a good chance, since canadians are mostly offensive and not very good around defence (according to what I saw at waterloo and GTRW).

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by ErvinI

Waterloo, not GTRE .

I personally don't agree with a full out offensive team, especially when one of those robots is a FCS. When you are limited to 45 discs + floor pick-up your alliance will starve itself before the end of the match due to your FCS' ability to unload every few seconds. Instead, an "enforcer" could be used to protect the FCS from any blockers. After all, the maximum height of a FCS will always be shorter than the maximum height of a defender. Once the FCS has don't its job, the defender has the time to do its climb, preferably a climb-and-dump or just a 30.

Therefore, an alliance that could easily make Einstein is:

1. A tall full-court shooter that is relatively accurate.
2. A floor pick-up robot that can clean up any misses and shoot 7 discs in autonomous.
3. A quick climber with a drivetrain strong enough to hold up against robots trying to go through it. Preferably with dumping capabilities.

I concur that these are the types of alliances that will show up out of half of the divisions.

It may come down to a bad cRio, a disconnected battery, or (hopefully not) the FMS.

[Koko Ed]

I'm still holding out for that Mechanum wheel kitbot to break through finally.

[2789_B_Garcia]

Originally Posted by Bdf809

My Current dream alliance then would be:

1114, 254, and a solely defensive bot (likely with a 10 pt hang)

-or-

1114, 987 or 2056, and a 30 pt climber (maybe a defensive bot if they can defend well enough to make up for the 20-30 pt difference in climb points)

I hope they feel the same way and have had the chance to watch some of our matches

Originally Posted by waialua359

Pure defenders will not make Einstein.

We think so, too...which is why we're adding a shooter thanks to the help of our good friends at 4063!

This is 2789's first trip to championship, and we were planning on going starry-eyed and simply happy to be there, but now we are hoping to make a statement. See y'all there!