Who is going to be on Einstein?

[PayneTrain]

If I was given the option between a robot that can shoot at the pyramid quickly and consistently (5-6 lightly defended cycles) and have a 5 disc center-line auto, that puts it miles above an FCS.

I have not seen much talk about how much the game piece count will factor in late divisional eliminations and Einstein. There will likely be no more than 1 disc per alliance on the floor after auto is over, and if you have two quick, dialed in pyramid shooters that can run 5 cycles by themselves and an available "street sweeper" that could pick up that extra cycle's worth of discs back that the wall then proceed to pick up whatever it can find on the field, what use is a full court shooter? In a hypothetical match pairing a shooter/30-pointer, shooter/intake/10-pointer, and shooter/10-pointer hang, you will be getting just as much out of the shooter/10pointer as a full court shooter, in my opinion.

Alliances that make it to Einstein will have at least one robot doing intake all match, at least one robot that can run teleop cycles and make a quick enough hang to matter, and the second pick will likely be the best robot the alliance had left on their board, be it a center-line auto and teleop shooter, a cycle-based shooter, and a full court shooter that can run cycles in that order.

I feel averse to saying full court shooters can just flip a switch to running cycles and it's practically the same thing like some others are. Running efficient cycles is about your drive team sticking to and thriving under that strategy. 422's cycle count would increase as the day progressed, from 2 by match 1, adding a cycle (unintentionally) in each match. It's a rhythm. Teams like 620 (remember them, guys?) likely practiced running cycles until their drivers got sick of them, shaving off as many seconds as possible to add in more, but hey, they got 7 cycles in only one match in Week 1. Having to adjust that rhythm in the middle of championship eliminations is probably not going to be a wise pick. That's not the time you want to get wishy-washy on strategy.

[MikeZ]

Originally Posted by c.aldridge

I don't necessarily agree with that. The number 1 alliance at Alamo did not advance to finals with their full offensive team. They were composed of:
1. 1477 with a guaranteed 3 frisbee auto and tried to get the middle 4
2. 624 with a 5-7 frisbee auto
3. 457 with a 3 frisbee auto

They started the semis with 70+ pts and still lost against a quick shooter from 4063, 2789 playing defense and allowing 2468 to shoot full court. It was close, but the primarily offensive team was upset.

Also just realized you were at Alamo so you were able to see this occur.

Having the autonomous capability and performing on the field is not the same thing. Nothing is guaranteed. In the last Semi match our Alliance only had 5 discs scored in auto and lost the match by 4 points. We were getting 9-10 auto discs the previous Elim matches. Would have been nice to "start the Semis with 70+ points" but it didn't happen.

2789 gets credit for playing excellent defense and 4063 and 2468 proved they were very capable shooters. They played very well togheter and in the end made it happen on the field.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

There are a number of combination possibilities, however I think the greatest use of the Cross Court Shooter will be its ability to necessitate and draw a defender to it, allowing for more space for two fast, accurate and efficient run & gun teams.
I think the alliance that can score 15+ auto discs will have a good time. (15+?!? How is that possible? 3x3 plus 4 plus 2+ from the middle line) 90 auto points will put pretty much anyone in an insurmountable hole.

1114 and 2056 will not be in the same division this year. I can almost guarantee that.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by animenerdjohn

Due to wildcard and a new regional there will be more canadian teams attending this year. I could imagine it'll be possible to assemble an all canadian team in any division (And given the play of some of the top teams not named 1114 and 2056, it might be just as effective as the last one).

Factually incorrect.

Yes, there will be more Canadian teams qualified for CMP than ever before. It very well may be possible to build an all Canadian alliance in any division (there have been many CMP divisions in the last 10 years where this was possible)

Where you're wrong is the third point. There are no other Canadian teams even remotely close to the strength of 1114 and 2056. 610 is the closest, and even they can't hold a candle to 1114 or 2056.

Using OPR as a metric, at GTREast, 2056 alone was approximately the same strength as 1241 and 4343 combined.

Don't get me wrong, many of Canada's second tier teams (610, 1241, 1310, 1334, 4343, 772, 4039, and more) are plenty strong. Strong enough to win regionals in many other places. Strong enough, even, to perhaps make Einstein, but 1114 and 2056 are just so much stronger than anyone else here, to say that any other all-Canadian alliance could be similarly strong to an 1114+2056+4334 alliance is just wrong.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

1114 and 2056 will not be in the same division this year. I can almost guarantee that.

No you can't. All you can say is that there is a 75% chance that they won't be.

[BobbyVanNess]

I was convinced for a while that the high scoring autonomous was crucial, but we were able to come back from a massive points deficit almost every match at the CT regional eliminations, finals especially. I believe it was 18-54 at one point, we came back to win 179-128. By the 80 second mark, we had already surpassed them in points (thanks to 195's FCS). I'm not entirely sure that the high scoring auto will be absolutely necessary for divisions. Advantageous, yes, but crucial, maybe not.
Finals 2, coming back from a heavy loss in autonomous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JabpLSeudg

[Pault]

Looking at the scores which are being put up at normal regional events, I think that an Einstein alliance will need to be able to put up 200-250 points consistently. This may vary depending on the level of defense played. Now, if an alliance was to put every white disk in their player station into the 3pt goal, that is only 145 points. And that rarely ever happens. So even more than many people are saying, I think that autonomous and climbing will be the difference.

So my conclusion for an Einstein Aliance:

1. A 7 disk autonomous robot which will continue to sweep the floor throughout teleop.
2. A robot who gets disks off the center line during autonomous. Ideally it would do so 987 style, but most likely it will just get 2. Also, it needs to be accustomed to running cycles in autonomous, because at championships there will not be the plenty of disks on the floor which can support 2 like good ground pickups like at regionals.
3. A consistent 3 disk autonomous robot with a good drivetrain/driver to play defense. Should also be able to hook up an 84in blocker.

Notice that I didn't mention climbing. That is because I think climbing is going to be a big variable between Einstein alliances. For now, I will just assume that there will be a 30 point climber and two 10 point climbers, and I can't tell which of the 3 robots will get the 30.

So lets add up the points:

Autonomous:
15 disks x 6 points = 90 points

Teleop:
5 cycles from the ground loader + 5 cycles from the feeder station=10 cycles
10 cycles x 4 disks=40 disks
40 disks x 3 points=120 points

Climbing:
50 points

90 + 120 + 50=260 points

Considering that things will go wrong and defense will be played, that puts this alliance right where I expect an Einstein alliance to be.

[benherms]

Originally Posted by bkahl

1. A floor feeder is a necessity in a good alliance. There will always be frisbees on the ground for them to pick up. Good climb perferable

2. Full Court Shooter- not many out there, and consistent shooters are even slimmer. A good full court shooter paired with a floor feeder will put every frisbee in the goal. 10 point climb?

3. Defense/Climb Bot- a defense bot is almost a necessity to keep other robots from blocking the FCS. The full court shooters are ineffective with a piece of pecan sitting in front of it. This bit can also be used to combat another FCS. A climb is preferable

An alliance like this is most effective if the floor pickup bot can perform a seven frisbee auto and the defensive bot has a powerful drivetrain that can keep an opposing FCS out of their feeder station. Also, like you said, the FCS MUST. BE. CONSISTENT. Finally, if we're talking about Einstein, only exceptional coaching and performance under pressure combined with a pinpoint strategy will create a sufficient alliance.

[apples000]

From looking at this from a pure offensive scoring position, I think that a climber/dumper with 3 disc auto and some defensive play could be a candidate. This robot would score a guaranteed 68 points every match and if the other partners could do just as well, the total score would be 204 points.

[Abhishek R]

I'm pretty certain that the "pure offense" strategy will not work. After watching several of the regionals from the current season, most of the "defense" was just a robot moving side to side along the centerline and occasionally the tall blocker to attempt and deflect full-court shots. A more risky strategy, requiring a stellar drive team, is the man-to-man defense (or, since CD likes using hockey for this challenge, body-checking) as was displayed by 2789 TEXplosion at the Lone Star and Alamo Regionals. By making the trip back-and-forth from the feeder station a nightmare for the pyramid shooters with a quick and powerful drivetrain, they were able to delay the number of cycles these pyramid shooters were able to make taking it down from 5+ cycles to even just 1 cycle. They also had a removable blocker for those pesky FCS'. Even matched up against the now famous alliance of 1114 and 2056, I think a good defender could completely take down one, if not both robots. I'd imagine the scores in the finals of each division will only be around 150, assuming this strategy of man-to-man defense gets played.

I think the alliance that gets to Einstein will be composed of:

-Extremely mobile pyramid shooter with under-pyramid capability and 7 disk auto

-Full-court shooter with perfect 3 disk auto

-Fast and strong drivetrain defender with good drive team

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by benherms

An alliance like this is most effective if the floor pickup bot can perform a seven frisbee auto and the defensive bot has a powerful drivetrain that can keep an opposing FCS out of their feeder station. Also, like you said, the FCS MUST. BE. CONSISTENT. Finally, if we're talking about Einstein, only exceptional coaching and performance under pressure combined with a pinpoint strategy will create a sufficient alliance.

Not to mention, the FCS better be able to run to the pyramid to shoot if need be, and absolutely must hit all three autonomous shots. FCSs that are 1-trick robots will be shut down entirely.

[Kevin Leonard]

I think that the two most important positions on an alliance are a feeder station robot (whether that be a FCS or just a fast cycler) and a floor loader (preferably with a multi-disc autonomous). The third robot can occupy a multitude of positions- from defensive climber to "offensive lineman"/climber or even another cycle-runner.

I think this year- above all other previous years- is going to see the largest disparity in alliance composition on Einstein.

All of the above being said, sometimes you'll have robots that can fill a sort-of combination niche- like 1986- who has a 7 disc auto, but during teleop plays the role of a fast feeder station loader. So an alliance like 1986-987-3rdRobot would still work because they have complementary multi-disc autos and play different roles on an alliance.

[MathMaven]

Originally Posted by Isaac

\At the regionals I have attended, I have seen very few floor pickup machines. I don't know if this a function of strategy or difficulty of execution but it seems very rare. Although many of the powerhouse teams have the capability, they use it infrequently. It seems like after the discs in the center of the field are depleted, it is not worth the extra time and ambiguity to attempt to floor pickup. This is something I am very unsure about however, and it could have a much larger role in STL than I anticipated with teams such as 1986 and 2056 concentrating on it.

At Detroit, Team 469 scored lots of points with its fast and reliable floor pickup, and won the whole darn thing as Captain of the #1 alliance. I think a good floor pickup will have a place.

[Justin Shelley]

This is my idea of a realistic winning alliance for Einstein

Alliance Captain- Strong autonomous, fast and strong drive train, pyramid and full court shooter, and ten point climb. This teams strategy would be to shoot auto disc and then either full court shoot or pyramid shoot, depending if the opposing alliance has a full court shooter, then ten point climb.

First Pick- Strong autonomous, extremely strong and maneuverable drive train, ten point climb, and pyramid shooter. This teams strategy would be to shoot auto disc and then block other teams shooters, either full court or pyramid. Or if there is no team worth defending then either protect their own shooter or score points their selves. Then at end climb ten points.

Second Pick- Floor pickup, 7+ disc autonomous, reliable drive train, professional construction, 30 pt climb with 20 pt dump. This teams strategy would be to shoot 7 or more auto disc, make one or two feeder station trips-optional- and then climb and dump.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Justin Shelley

This is my idea of a realistic winning alliance for Einstein

Alliance Captain- Strong autonomous, fast and strong drive train, pyramid and full court shooter, and ten point climb. This teams strategy would be to shoot auto disc and then either full court shoot or pyramid shoot, depending if the opposing alliance has a full court shooter, then ten point climb.

First Pick- Strong autonomous, extremely strong and maneuverable drive train, ten point climb, and pyramid shooter. This teams strategy would be to shoot auto disc and then block other teams shooters, either full court or pyramid. Or if there is no team worth defending then either protect their own shooter or score points their selves. Then at end climb ten points.

Second Pick- Floor pickup, 7+ disc autonomous, reliable drive train, professional construction, 30 pt climb with 20 pt dump. This teams strategy would be to shoot 7 or more auto disc, make one or two feeder station trips-optional- and then climb and dump.

If a championship alliance finds a 2nd pick that can do a 7-disc autonomous...they should automatically win.