Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?

[Michael Blake]

My belief in the _value_ to students who earn FIRST Dean's List Finalist awards relating to _desirability_ to be _accepted_ into M.I.T. or Yale or "prestigious" colleges/universities has been shaken.

When you read the representations made by FIRST in this document:

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...teria_2012.pdf

...and FIRST states, "Since its introduction in 2010, the FIRST Dean’s List Award has attracted the attention of prestigious colleges and universities who desire to recruit FIRST Dean’s List students" and the other things they say in the document in relation to colleges/universities [i.e. M.I.T./Yale], AND then you couple the representations made on the stage at the 2012 Championship Dean's List ceremony by Dean Kamen and folks from M.I.T. and Yale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._Wu_E#t=88 1s

...AND then there's NO SUCCESS in getting into M.I.T. or Yale (despite satisfying ALL the required academic metrics and subjectives) ... I've come to the conclusion that the value "pitch" of Dean's List to these "elite" college applications MAY BE _overstated_ and _over-sold_.


To the approximately 350 Dean's List Finalists out there (2010, 2011, 2012)... PLEASE help restore my confidence in FIRST and this award by posting your experiences/outcomes with M.I.T. and/or Yale... please provide _evidence_ to support the representations made by FIRST and Dean Kamen (in the video).

Maybe my family's experience is an outlier?! I'm hoping that's the case...

Hopefully, this thread can accumulate enough results/data to come to a conclusion on the efficacy of the award relating to "elite" college entry. I've talked to FIRST folks (intimately involved with Dean's List) directly on this and they have NO NUMBERS to share or measure on the success of Dean's List Finalists/Winners getting into these schools?!

[dcarr]

This thread could quickly become a long one, as the college admissions process is essentially a black box, with no rhyme or reason (well, aside from a few basic parameters). When the acceptance rate at these schools hovers at or below 10%, there is no doubt that hundreds, neigh, thousands, of completely qualified and spectacular applicants are denied admission.

Expecting Dean's List Finalist (or Winner) status to guarantee admission to two particular schools seems far fetched.

I've seen students on our team do remarkably well in college acceptances this year (including one Dean's List Finalist), and a few months ago as I was helping some of them revise and fine-tune essays and short answers for college apps, I liked to think that their wealth of experiences in FIRST meant something to these universities. As I was writing Dean's List Nominations for this year's Juniors, I had the same thing in mind, but more importantly, I wanted them to have a chance at being recognized for their success and achievements for their own merit. To some schools I'm sure it does carry heavy weight; based on the statements in that video, I'm sure of it. But no single activity, award, or accomplishment (starting a charity, having a perfect GPA, high SAT, tough family story, athletics, Dean's List) is a guarantee of acceptance anywhere.

Expecting this thread to conjure up useful, measurable data is a difficult proposition - there is no way that those 350 students had similar applications outside of their Dean's List status, nor did they apply to the same schools. We can't really "compare" students in that way; only university admissions folks have the ability to do that

I wish your student the best of luck and I'm sure he or she will be able to make the most of the offers he or she received and end up at a great place.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by dcarr

Expecting Dean's List Finalist (or Winner) status to guarantee admission to two particular schools seems far fetched.

Expecting this thread to conjure up useful, measurable data is a difficult proposition - there is no way that those 350 students had similar applications outside of their Dean's List status, nor did they apply to the same schools.

David... I never used the word "guarantee" nor did intimate it. I was careful to point directly to the FIRST document and the video from the FIRST Dean's List ceremony at Championship.

Dean Kamen (watch the video) made representations about these colleges and their _desirability_ of these students to them as applicants. My experience is the representations aren't true.

I could be completely wrong on this... and I'm _simply_ looking for feedback from those who _actually_ applied to M.I.T. and Yale and what their outcome was given the representations FIRST makes about their _desirability_.

There's NOTHING wrong with questioning representations and trying to square those representations with some data... ;-)

WHY write/say the words IF the efficacy IS NOT there?!

--Michael

[dcarr]

Understood; might have read too far into your original post. I think the only way that FIRST would have data on this is if

1) They required all Dean's List recipients to report their college acceptance results (which they currently don't)
2) Colleges reported their acceptance or denial of Dean's List students back to FIRST (which I think might be considered a violation of privacy?)

I guess I just don't think we're going to get cold, hard, data here.

Honestly the way things are going...I don't think the university model is going to look the same even a decade from now. It's just too crazy these days.

[MooreteP]

Bloom where you are planted.

Go Boilers.
Purdue, BSNE, 1984

Are those underscores meant to be quotes?

Efficacy: "The ability to produce a desired or intended result."
If Yale or MIT is your result, PowerBall is up to $50 million this weekend.

While a Yale or MIT degree may confer a eye widening response at a cocktail party, it is only the base upon which an individual builds their professional experience and resume.

Trust the Universe.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

[Ninja_Bait]

Alex Carrillo of 694 is a Dean's List finalist from 2011, from NY and is currently attending Yale University. Is that the only reason he got into his school of choice? Probably not, but it certainly didn't hurt.

I totally understand that you're feeling burned about rejections; I'm the only team captain from our team to not get into MIT, and I'm still a little bitter, too. The truth is that not everyone can go to an Ivy League school, but anyone can find success in life even if they don't.

Make the most of whatever college education you get - at the Cooper Union I get the opportunity to mentor my old team and be a part of a smaller, closer-knit community while still getting a great engineering education.

Best of luck!

[Peter Matteson]

We've sent students to both Yale and MIT.

Our 1 Dean's list finalist currently attends Syracuse.

I see no correlation from the data I have.

(For the sake of disclosure my fiance works at Yale.)

[mathking]

The thing that every student needs to understand about admission to any elite school is that schools get a great many more qualified applicants than they have spots open. Most people tend to think that admissions is a ranking system, and that higher SAT/ACT scores, higher grades, more AP classes necessarily equates to greater likelihood of admission. In fact the situation is closer to using test scores and grades to set a floor. Applicants above the floor get considered. After that, the process becomes far more opaque, and many other factors come into play. There is no magic formula to insure admission to M.I.T., Yale and the like. I have had kids with perfect test scores and all As not get in to M.I.T. and kids with lower scores get in. Elite schools spend a lot of effort looking for ways in which particular applicants will enhance the school. Lots of factors play a roll. For anyone interested in a little window into the last few decisions, I recommend the book Alma Mater by P.F. Kluge. It is a book about a year spent as an instructor at Kenyon College, and one section talks about the author observing the admissions process and in particular the way in which the last few decisions get made.

None of our Dean's list finalists have gone to MIT or Yale but they have gone to Carnegie Mellon, Ohio State and Virginia Tech. (I think one of them applied to M.I.T. and was deferred, the other two did not apply. I believe our finalist this year is considering M.I.T., but we'll have to see about that.) The program has not been around long enough for there to be any conclusive data about the benefit for college admissions.

[emekablue]

Everything mathking said was on point. Even kids who win international awards, like Dean's List or even Siemens or Intel don't get into Yale or MIT. Sure, there may be factors of the applicant that qualified the person for Dean's List that admissions groups thought were admirable, but that can't and should not automatically qualify one for a position at an elite university. The admit officers have the job of sorting through tens of thousands of apps for like 1000ish spots, and after you get past qualifications (certain academic achievement levels, which includes test performance) you look at how well that applicant will fit in the school, take advantage of the school's unique resources, interact with others, etc.

I think what the FIRST video meant to convey (because admission to these universities is so dependent on more than just titles) is that DL winners, when later speaking with admissions officers, have the eye-catching qualities of a Siemens winner or an Intel winner and that these kids are more heavily considered for these scarce positions.

I personally never won Dean's List, but I was nominated by my team, and that's something I indicated on my apps. I also had a lot more than (though, admittedly a lot of) FIRST-related activity on my app with other activities that I was involved in, I guess. And for me, admission success to top colleges was evident. But, I don't think one can directly correlate anything specific on my app to admission. Dean's List winners included. However, imho, Dean's Listers will be successful wherever they go, so why even worry?

[Chinmay]

Hello

I'm currently a Yale sophomore and just wanted to throw in my 2cents. The year I graduated, deans list was just starting, but even so, I know there were at least 3 MIT admits, an I know of at least one deans list winner who chose to go there that year. This year, there are several deans list winners also admitted to Yale/MIT. They may or may not choose to come to these schools, but I think that the impression that they aren't getting in is a false one.

Yale has a pretty awesome community of First alumni. One of my friends (Alex from 694) and I recently attended Boston regional and Hartford respectively. Furthermore, Marina, a deans list finalist from this year was also accepted. We've had quite a few alumni getogethers with quite a good turnout despite not having deans list winners there. Yale is well aware of FIRST and how awesome it is, and we have strong ties to the program.

MIT/Yale admissions are inherently a little arbitrary because of the fact that there are so many qualifie students out there, and a Yale isn't that big! The admissions rate keeps going down, and there are no guarantees. Also, the deans list winners who get in here, also get into other schools they want to go to, so only a few of the successful applicants actually end up here.

There's also something to be said about the students who win the deans list awards. The deans list isn't a purely academic scholarship. Mentors write essays which are judged along side grades and other metrics to determine winners. Not all deans list finalists would fit in here at Yale, and try ultimately scholar schools at which they excel and enjoy the culture.

I hope that clarifies things a little bit, and good luck to all of the applicants in making your decisions!

Chinmay

[Jon Stratis]

I hate to say it, but a single data point (or even a couple) isn't enough to support the claims made by the OP. Being part of a FIRST team helps students get into engineering schools, but that doesn't mean every student from every team is accepted to an engineering school! Likewise, being a Dean's List Finalist or Winner doesn't mean you'll be accepted into any program you want... it's a single aspect of your application.

Colleges these days aren't just looking at grades, test scores, and prestigious awards. They're looking at the whole picture. Can the admissions group see that student integrating well into the community? Are the student's activities, extra curriculars, and interests one-sided, or are they well rounded? Do they think the student will close themselves up in their room and not interact, or do they see the student going out into the school to make a positive difference?

This is all on the "touchy-feely" side of things, something engineers hate - simply put, it's not quantifiable. You can't sit down and create a list of requirements that will guarantee entry, and quite frankly acceptance or rejection of any particular student may hinge on what the admissions board had for breakfast that morning (hopefully not, but you see my point).

Dean's List DOES look good on college applications. It gives the students a talking point if they interview at a college, and gives them a way to lead into FIRST and everything they've done with the program. But that's not why we should be nominating students.

Don't nominate a student because you want them to get into college X. Nominate them because you truly believe they have made a significant impact on your team and on the FIRST community. Nominate them because you want to recognize them for what they've done. Nominate them because you know the nomination alone will create an impact with them that goes beyond college applications. Nominate them because they are outstanding examples of what FIRST is striving to achieve. College applications are just a bonus.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Bait

Alex Carrillo of 694 is a Dean's List finalist from 2011, from NY and is currently attending Yale University. Is that the only reason he got into his school of choice? Probably not, but it certainly didn't hurt.

I totally understand that you're feeling burned about rejections; I'm the only team captain from our team to not get into MIT, and I'm still a little bitter, too. The truth is that not everyone can go to an Ivy League school, but anyone can find success in life even if they don't.

Make the most of whatever college education you get - at the Cooper Union I get the opportunity to mentor my old team and be a part of a smaller, closer-knit community while still getting a great engineering education.

Best of luck!

They say write what you know, so here goes:

I went to The Cooper Union as the class of 2009, well before the Dean's List. That year Cooper Union was considered one of the most selective university in the country. Yet I was rejected from another college that was less selective, by about a factor 2. Even now Cooper is still more selective than Yale or MIT.

Why would less-selective colleges reject someone that is accepted at a more-selective college? Maybe they're trying to balance demographics, backgrounds, majors, genders, or mystery quality 63b.

An odd trend that I noticed that HS valedictorians frequently drop out of Cooper, usually after a pretty bad melt down. On the other hand, students without straight-A HS GPAs (or not even close, like me) tend to thrive. Why do you think that happens?

My point is that some (maybe many) colleges value non-quantifiable traits in their applicants. Just because an applicant has a certain GPA, extra-curricular activities, or awards, does not mean that they will fit well within a particular institution. Admissions officers have to understand what type of students will do well and contribute to their university or college and select those that have the best chance at doing so. This is why the 'black magic' of admissions happens. There's no saying that one student is better than another by looking at the colleges they got into, they're just different.

Reference: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandre...ce-rate/spp+50

[Steven Donow]

Nothing GUARANTEES acceptance into a college. I didn't apply to Yale or MIT(or any ivies for that matter) because my academics,despite being excellent,probably aren't at that level...I did get into WPI, which I think might have been out of my reach, so I do honestly think FIRST in general helped me with that...same goes for Northeastern

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Bait

Alex Carrillo of 694 is a Dean's List finalist from 2011, from NY and is currently attending Yale University.

Jake... THANKS for the data on Alex! --Michael

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

We've sent students to both Yale and MIT.

Our 1 Dean's list finalist currently attends Syracuse.

I see no correlation from the data I have.[/size]

Peter... THANKS for the data! --Michael