Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by mathking

None of our Dean's list finalists have gone to MIT or Yale but they have gone to Carnegie Mellon, Ohio State and Virginia Tech. (I think one of them applied to M.I.T. and was deferred, the other two did not apply. I believe our finalist this year is considering M.I.T., but we'll have to see about that.)

The program has not been around long enough for there to be any conclusive data about the benefit for college admissions.

Greg... THANKS for the data!

I AGREE with you that program has not been around long enough to gauge results... so WHY does FIRST make representations like the ones contained in the document and video I pointed to in the original post?

[dcarr]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

I AGREE with you that program has not been around long enough to gauge results... so WHY does FIRST make representations like the ones contained in the document and video I pointed to in the original post?

I don't see any reason to think that the representations are inaccurate? The admissions folks say they look highly upon Dean's List kids, and from this thread it appears that they have admitted some of them.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by dcarr

I don't see any reason to think that the representations are inaccurate? The admissions folks say they look highly upon Dean's List kids, and from this thread it appears that they have admitted some of them.

But I think one of the issues is that it seems as though much of the data here lacks background-for all we know some of theses students could be some that were EXTREMELY qualified and would have gotten in anyway, even without DL.

My best guess is like everything, DL helps extremely in admissions, but everything else(ie. grades, class ranking) still has an impact.

[jspatz1]

I have some experience in helping both Dean's List Finalist winners, and MIT admitted students, and would offer you these thoughts. Your status as a FIRST Dean's List Finalist did indeed help your admission chances. Perhaps it helped you move to no. 5000 on the list of applicants instead of no. 8000. You must realize that for each and every one of the thousands of applicants, there is a portfolio consisting of many, many nuggets of information and judgements about that applicant. ACT scores, SAT scores, grades, awards, extracurriculars, honors, projects, activities are all pebbles in your basket, but there are many pebbles, and they are all considered and weighed differently and subjectively by the multiple admissions officers who studied your application. Your Dean's List pebble was a large one in your basket there is no doubt, but it is only one pebble and cannot tip the scale on its own among the thousands of other baskets that you were weighed against. You say that you understood that a Dean's List Award was no guarantee, but it might be that deep down you were sort of hoping that it was.

When I have talked with admissions officers at MIT they express how difficult and painful it is to make their final selections from among so many worthy applicants. There are simply more applicants that should be admitted than they have slots for. The admission rate at such institutions is around 10%, and each and every applicant feels they have a good chance of being admitted, or they would not spend the considerable time, effort, and money it takes to apply. But in the end the officers must make their final selections based on the very subtle and subjective impressions they have from the fringes of your application. Those final impressions are not based much on hard data such as grades and scores and awards, but from the overall impression they get from your application and interview as a whole. At MIT they are always looking to build a class full of individuals who they judge are likely to achieve something great. They are looking for "spikes", not just a collection of high SAT scores or awards. How they judge those "spikes" is somewhat of a mystery, but it is not based much on data. As has already been stated in this thread, your scores, grades, and awards data will determines if you make the first 50% cut, which you probably did, but after that it becomes much more subjective.

Dean and FIRST are not misleading us when they claim that a Dean's List Finalist award in your portfolio will improve your chances of attending an elite university. It will. But you must keep in perspective the daunting odds you face when you apply to a Yale or an MIT. The numbers are so great that there will always be somewhat of a lottery nature to it. Be proud of your Dean's List status, and use it to help yourself get into another fine university.

[Alpha Beta]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jspatz1 again.

[Kims Robot]

To get overly lawyer-ese like so many of us do with rules...

"Since its introduction in 2010, the FIRST Dean’s List Award has attracted the attention of prestigious colleges and universities who desire to recruit FIRST Dean’s List students"

This statement does NOT say that the students get in. Simply that the Award itself has attracted the attention of the colleges. Which in all reality probably means Dean has spoken with many of the prestigious colleges and they think the award is a great idea. Follow that up with this statement:

Prestigious colleges have expressed great interest in meeting FIRST Dean’s List’s Award winners and so FIRST hopes that each team will take advantage of the opportunity to nominate their best students as FIRST Dean’s List Semi-Finalists!

And none of this is false. MIT, Yale, WPI and hosts more Admissions heads have come to speak at FIRST events, and are probably very interested in these students.

However, like so many say... do the math. Only TEN students are selected at the Championship level each year. There have only been FOUR years of the award... and I believe these last two years have only been Juniors (though many applied the "Juniors" concept early on). Thus only THREE classes of students (30 Championship level) even know if they have been admitted to schools. With only 30 kids... ~18,000 apply to MIT and less than 10% get in. Yale admits ~2,000 out of 30,000 applicants. So its really really tough to get in. And there are NO claims in any of the research or any of the speeches that this award guarantees admission.

And on another note, from seeing the students selected that I know... many have been team leaders, captains, co-captains, chairmans presenters, etc. BUT the leaders in the FIRST community may not be interested in going to Yale or MIT, or may not be exactly what those schools are looking for (I personally don't know any DL students with a 4.0+). Some are, but many aren't. Many students I know of choose schools like Clarkson, WPI, RPI, RIT, Carnegie Mellon, UMichigan, UIllinois, Harvey Mudd etc. All of these schools in my mind are VERY prestigious for excellent engineering programs, and don't have the same character as MIT or Yale. I have nothing against those schools, but when I chose to apply to schools, I did plenty of research on their programs, and even attended an MIT info session, and didn't end up even applying to either one as one of the 10 schools I applied to.

I don't think any single award can guarantee admission to any school (heck I saw a girl on my high school team get the full WPI scholarship at Champs way back in the day, but then not get admitted to the school!), as there are a whole host of factors that go into admissions.

I think FIRST wants to put a marketing spin on this awesome award, and I think this is the start to their spin. Like Dean has said I am AMAZED that it took them this long to come up with a student award... but I am excited that they have created something that will recognize student leaders and students that are likely to help grow the FIRST program... as we have seen (ok maybe this is a tad self serving) Alumni are one of THE best ways to grow the FIRST program, and one of THE best ways to promote great mentoring in the program (Take another quick aside - over 9 teams at the CT regional last year had Clarkson Alumni leading them or in significant mentorship roles!!).

Anyways, enough tangents. I'd love to see some detailed stats collected (like David suggested) on where all these Deans List students went & maybe even where they applied. I think there is a sizable FB group that maybe some data could be pulled from... and/or maybe FIRST has a way of collecting this info.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

Dean and FIRST are not misleading us when they claim that a Dean's List Finalist award in your portfolio will improve your chances of attending an elite university. It will. But you must keep in perspective the daunting odds you face when you apply to a Yale or an MIT. The numbers are so great that there will always be somewhat of a lottery nature to it. Be proud of your Dean's List status, and use it to help yourself get into another fine university.

Jeff... "misleading" is a negatively-loaded word that I HAVE NOT used.

Representations are made in writing and verbally at the Champs ceremony, WHERE'S the substantial evidence to support those representations?

IF you listen to the video carefully, NOBODY say's Dean's List will only "improve your chances of attending", there's NO DISCLAIMERS or warnings... here's a direct Dean Kamen quote right after M.I.T. and Yale folks finished speaking:

"As I said, the colleges get-it, they want to get YOU (pointing to the entire D/L audience)..."

That's _powerful_ stuff for a 17 year old and his parents to hear for the first time. The credibility factor was _VERY_ high, now not so much...

My OP premise is that my experience is that this award MAY BE overstated and over-sold as it relates to getting into M.I.T. and Yale. Though, data (results) might prove me wrong...

--Michael

BTW... you guys have an AWESOME robot this year... hoping to see you on Einstein!! ;-)

[ebarker]

Michael,

A year ago this subject was thoroughly flogged here on Chief Delphi and I was one of the floggers. The thread is somewhere out there but I'll summarize my thoughts via bullet points.

1) The original DL intent seemed to be to identify students that had a serious commitment to the mission and vision of FIRST and had exhibited the leadership skills and passion to become future leaders and champions of the FIRST mission.

2) The intent of the DL was redefined to the current definition a year or so later. It seemed to be more of a marketing ploy to get the public to value FIRST by having the public perceive that FIRST students are recruited by colleges much like colleges recruits athletes.

3) There are a lot of variables in the admissions process and some schools are very aggressive in soliciting large numbers of applications and have an extremely low acceptance rate. It is true that colleges and employers value FIRST alumni. But how does universities/employers differentiate between outstanding team members and low contributing team members. Answer: Highly qualified letters of recommendation from mentors/employers/teachers trump DL and about everything else.

4) Keeping the DL as a measurement of the students leadership skills and commitment to cultural change is what I vote for, it benefits the students best in the long term, benefits FIRST best in the long term, even though it doesn't fit FIRST's short term marketing effort.

5) Sweeping away consideration of seniors as DL candidates is a tragedy for many reasons including the fact that you can write a nomination based on only just over 2 years of student performance.

Here is my bottom line:

As far as linking the DL and college admission process - nope' I don't buy it.

The things a student has to do to earn the Dean's List is exactly the kind of thing employers like to hear. The award needs to be on the students resume and explained as a commitment to excellence.

Receiving a Dean's List Award is an honor, but you will have to learn how to use it to your own advantage as you develop your personal brand and career.

edit: the best way to get into the school of your choice it to go to a good school that give you an opportunity to blossom and flourish. demonstrate excellence and getting into the next school will be fantastically easier.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Jeff... "misleading" is a negatively-loaded word that I HAVE NOT used.

Representations are made in writing and verbally at the Champs ceremony, WHERE'S the substantial evidence to support those representations?

IF you listen to the video carefully, NOBODY say's Dean's List will only "improve your chances of attending", there's NO DISCLAIMERS or warnings... here's a direct Dean Kamen quote right after M.I.T. and Yale folks finished speaking:

"As I said, the colleges get-it, they want to get YOU (pointing to the entire D/L audience)..."

That's _powerful_ stuff for a 17 year old and his parents to hear for the first time. The credibility factor was _VERY_ high, now not so much...

My OP premise is that my experience is that this award MAY BE overstated and over-sold as it relates to getting into M.I.T. and Yale. Though, data (results) might prove me wrong...

Don't confound "data" and "results". Reasonable "substantial evidence" here can just as easily--in fact, more accurately--be from Dean talking to admissions officers. The stories he and the other speakers tell are no doubt completely accurate and therefore entirely credible.

The real inaccuracy is in linking those stories with the result of getting into a specific school. Far from a disclaimer, the program isn't old enough to statistically substantiate claims like "improve your chances of attending"--it's good they avoid it. Even if you imposed an inaccurate quantitative view, for instance, that MIT "bumps" every winner 1000 spots, we'd need a much larger sample size to see the correlation from selection reports. What Dean's doing is marketing the award and FIRST based on his good faith conversations with many, many university officials. Over advertising? Maybe. Misrepresenting? No.

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think linking Deans List and college admissions is really a good idea. It's the spirit of the award and all - It just doesn't feel right for it to be a 'bargaining chip' on the same level as SAT scores. It almost degrades the accomplishment.

For what it's worth, we have had no deans list winners but still have kids who go on to Cornell, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, U Chicago, etc... No Yale of MIT though, not that it really matters. For reference, we are a public school in upstate New York.

If the FIRST team is doing it's job and building people to be as best as they can, and students manage to convey that in their application, colleges should get the idea and the hidden benefits of being on a team will help their chances of acceptance.

[Michael Blake]

WOW. I'm getting pinged directly by Dean's List Finalist students and parents who chose not to reveal their info here on CD.

GOOD AMOUNT of disappointment, and feelings about the FIRST representations that track exactly with mine. It's eye-opening.

To make it easier, if anyone else wants to communicate with me directly on this matter here's my contact info:

Michael Blake
michaelblake@insurancelabs.com
210-858-8575

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Jeff... "misleading" is a negatively-loaded word that I HAVE NOT used.

Representations are made in writing and verbally at the Champs ceremony, WHERE'S the substantial evidence to support those representations?

IF you listen to the video carefully, NOBODY say's Dean's List will only "improve your chances of attending", there's NO DISCLAIMERS or warnings... here's a direct Dean Kamen quote right after M.I.T. and Yale folks finished speaking:

"As I said, the colleges get-it, they want to get YOU (pointing to the entire D/L audience)..."

That's _powerful_ stuff for a 17 year old and his parents to hear for the first time. The credibility factor was _VERY_ high, now not so much...

My OP premise is that my experience is that this award MAY BE overstated and over-sold as it relates to getting into M.I.T. and Yale. Though, data (results) might prove me wrong...

--Michael

BTW... you guys have an AWESOME robot this year... hoping to see you on Einstein!! ;-)

What part of Dean's quote isn't credible? Have we seen a Dean's List Finalist or winner get rejected from every college? Or have we seen some that maybe haven't gotten into their top choice, but have still gotten into good schools?

Again, you can't base any assessment of credibility against a single instance of results, especially when the admissions process is so complex. Winning Deal's list is a single feather in your cap, and you need many of them to get into a good school.

When I was applying to colleges, I had a great resume. Awesome SAT and ACT scores, practically a 4.0 (a single B one year in high school), a National Merit Finalist, Eagle Scout, leadership in the marching band, chess club, and math club, etc. It was a great resume. But I didn't get into my top school. I got in every where else though, just not my top school. Just because I didn't get into my top school doesn't mean there was something wrong. After all, aren't schools supposed to be interested in Eagle Scouts? Aren't they supposed to be interested in National Merit Finalists?

Dean and FIRST aren't misrepresenting or over stating anything. Schools are interested in Dean's List Finalists and Winners. Being on FIRST's Dean's List tells schools a lot about the individual applying. But it doesn't say everything, and even for a Dean's List Winner the rest of the application has to be gold in order to get you into the best of the best colleges.

[ebarker]

And just to repeat:

The things a student has to do to earn the Dean's List is exactly the kind of thing employers like to hear. The award needs to be on the students resume and explained as a commitment to excellence.

Receiving a Dean's List Award is an honor, but you will have to learn how to use it to your own advantage as you develop your personal brand and career.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

What part of Dean's quote isn't credible? Have we seen a Dean's List Finalist or winner get rejected from every college?

Jon..."isn't credible" is a negatively-loaded term I'm not using and I'm not going there. My experience is what he said DID NOT come true for my son.

In the quote I cited, Dean was _clearly_ talking about M.I.T. and Yale whose folks had just left the podium... he WAS NOT referring to "every college".

--Michael

[AlexD744]

So, I'm a FIRST alum currently attending MIT. I went through the whole admissions process and have read numerous blogs from admissions officers on how the process works. It's still somewhat vague, and I know that so many more people deserve to get in, and I feel incredibly blessed to be able to study here. But this is what I have gathered.

First, you need to have good grades and decent test scores, with classes like physics and calculus on your transcript. If you don't have those, although not impossible, it will be less likely that you thrive here.

Second, I think the admission office really wants to see that you have a personality, a passion, a quirk, or something that makes you different. They want to build a class of students who will be able to work together to solve the challenges set before them, and ultimately the challenges that the world faces. (Side note: this is what diversity truly means, bringing together different people with different mentalities and background's for this purpose. It does not mean various races, genders, sexuailties, etc.) Much of this comes from reading your essays, letters of rec, and interviewers essays. A list of achievements and awards can help show your passions, but more important is that you explain why these achievements are important to you.

Finally, although the above is a rough guideline, there is no perfect formula for college admission, anywhere. Period. And trying to formalize it just gets harder as the admission rate goes down. The above is somewhat of the thinking that goes into MIT's admissions, but it's different for every school. Because there is no formula, it is nearly impossible to quantify how the Dean's List (or anything else for that matter) affects your chances of acceptance.

tl;dr: While the Dean's list is a phenomenal achievement, it is by no means a guarantee to being accepted to any school, because there are no such guarantees.

Note: I did not win a Dean's List award.