Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

I'm just trying to get a feel for the success of other Dean's List Finalists in getting into M.I.T. and Yale, the ones that meet the known criteria _PLUS_ have D/L in their quiver...

"...known criteria"? There is no such thing. I fear you have the mistaken impression that admission to these schools is a mathematical formula that one should be able to predict the result of by looking at the data. It is nothing of the sort. No matter how stellar one's portfolio is, you will never get to know what impression was left by such things as your essays or interviews. They are very large factors. Much bigger factors than a Dean's List Award, or even grades or test scores. It is a very difficult reality that one never gets to know exactly why they were not accepted to an elite school that they thought they were qualified for, but it is a high-risk reality that goes along with applying to these schools.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

"...known criteria"? There is no such thing.

No matter how stellar one's portfolio is, you will never get to know what impression was left by such things as your essays or interviews.

They are very large factors. Much bigger factors than a Dean's List Award, or even grades or test scores.

Jeff... there ABSOLUTELY is a known base-line in the objective measurements, both M.I.T. and Yale publish their data. ALL I'm talking about is the middle 50-percentile range. If you hit the numbers it's NOT a factor that has to be outweighed with other strengths or explained with a story.

For my son, on the interviews, all we have are the very positive/complimentary feedback from the TWO interviewers given right at the end of the interviews.

On the essays, maybe they thought they were crap... but, they were written by a multi-award winning writer in both middle-school and high school.

ALSO, I think you're so intent to prove me wrong on this, I think you've lost what I originally wrote in the OP. I just think the whole Dean's List Finalist value is overstated and over-sold as it relates to "desirability" with M.I.T. and Yale.

I wish I could share the info I've received via PM's on CD and FB; emails and one phone call. There's a bunch of people thinking exactly the same as me on this.

[Akash Rastogi]

I discussed this a bunch today with people, and I wanted to point out a possibility. This post isn't any sort of attack on your feelings, Michael, it is something to think about for the students/parents who might feel a bit bitter or disheartened.

Did you ever consider that the admissions officers, school presidents and representatives who spoke to Dean all made him feel the same way they make students feel after an interview or during a campus visit?

What I mean is this: Who in their right mind WOULDN'T praise Dean Kamen upon meeting him? I mean, it's freaking DEAN KAMEN. Who wouldn't say "Wow Dean, I love your program and what you're doing for these kids! I absolutely love FIRST students!" Admissions officers and interviewers make students feel comfortable and give positive feedback. I have never, in my experience and from any friends' experiences, received negative feedback from someone affiliated with a college. It just isn't what they do. They give you feedback that is usually positive or try to make you feel comfortable and answer questions about the university, they want you to open up and talk more about yourself. I think that this is most likely what schools do when they speak to Dean, because they might just be used to it. Who would say, "Well, I don't know, Dean. FIRST isn't that huge of a determining factor in our admissions process."

The only thing Dean can interpret from and relay back to you (you being general) is what colleges tell him. Of course they love kids in FIRST. Kids in FIRST are great! But, this is probably also the same thing they tell thousands of other kids in other organizations. Schools do this to get more kids to apply so that they can have more kids to pick and choose from.

Sorry if that sounds convoluted or doesn't make sense, it is late and I have exams tomorrow, but I just want to point out that Dean is clearly extremely excited in that video. You can tell when the man is beaming with happiness, most likely because he truly believes in what representatives from various universities have told him.

I do not think it is right or valid to place any sort of blame on Dean, a man who clearly loves and believes in what he is saying. I think that what folks from universities tell people in public will always be positive and optimistic because they want everyone to think they have a chance of getting in. Why? Because they want everyone to apply there (for various reasons). And what does more applicants mean? More kids who won't get a shot at attending because their simply aren't enough seats to fill from the pool of applicants.

This is just what I think. Again, it's late, don't mind my rambling too much but I think you, Michael, might be holding Dean/FIRST accountable for something they are not at fault for. Frankly, I don't think anyone is at fault for anything here and nothing needs to be changed. For all I know, there are kids out there who applied to a school they normally would have not applied to thanks to the Dean's List award. For all I know, the only motivation they had was their award. If they get in, it is a plus. Even if they are pushed into applying, that is also a plus. The award provides proof to kids that they are doing something right. That someone is recognizing their efforts. Most often, this is all that kids need to continue striving for success.

Sorry for a random theory/explanation. I'm just trying to mediate any hard feelings DL finalists might have towards Dean/FIRST for how they have stated things regarding the award.

/phew

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I discussed this a bunch today with people, and I wanted to point out a possibility.

Did you ever consider that the admissions officers, school presidents and representatives who spoke to Dean all made him feel the same way they make students feel after an interview?

What I mean is this: Who in their right mind WOULDN'T praise Dean Kamen upon meeting him? I mean, it's freaking DEAN KAMEN. Who wouldn't say "Wow Dean, I love your program and what you're doing for these kids! I absolutely love FIRST students!" Admissions officers and interviewers make students feel comfortable and give positive feedback. I have never, in my experience and from any friends' experiences, received negative feedback from someone affiliated with a college. It just isn't what they do. They give you feedback that is usually positive or try to make you feel comfortable and answer questions about the university, they want you to open up and talk more about yourself. I think that this is most likely what schools do when they speak to Dean, because they might just be used to it. Who would say, "Well, I don't know, Dean. FIRST isn't that huge of a determining factor in our admissions process."

The only thing Dean can interpret from and relay back to you (you being general) is what colleges tell him. Of course they love kids in FIRST. Kids in FIRST are great! But, this is probably also the same thing they tell thousands of other kids in other organizations. Schools do this to get more kids to apply so that they can have more kids to pick and choose from.

Sorry if that sounds convoluted or doesn't make sense, it is late and I have exams tomorrow, but I just want to point out that Dean is clearly extremely excited in that video. You can tell when the man is beaming with happiness, most likely because he truly believes in what representatives from various universities have told him.

I do not think it is right or valid to place any sort of blame on Dean, a man who clearly loves and believes in what he is saying. I think that what folks from universities tell people in public will always be positive and optimistic because they want everyone to think they have a chance of getting in. Why? Because they want everyone to apply there (for various reasons). And what does more applicants mean? More kids who won't get a shot at attending because their simply aren't enough seats to fill from the pool of applicants.

This is just what I think. Again, it's late, don't mind my rambling too much but I think you, Michael, might be holding Dean/FIRST accountable for something they are not at fault for. Frankly, I don't think anyone is at fault for anything here and nothing needs to be changed. For all I know, there are kids out there who applied to a school they normally would have not applied to thanks to the Dean's List award. For all I know, the only motivation they had was their award. If they get in, it is a plus. Even if they are pushed into applying, that is also a plus. The award provides proof to kids that they are doing something right. That someone is recognizing their efforts. Most often, this is all that kids need to continue striving for success.

Sorry for a random theory/explanation.

/phew

Akash... you've been talking to a bunch of people... and I've been hearing from a bunch people off of this post who see things exactly the same way I see them and had the same results as my son.

I don't know why things ALWAYS devolve on CD from the OP. I'm NOT going negative on Dean Kamen, because I think he believes exactly what was said and is an awesome human being with a sincere heart. I'm just pointing out that in my experience (and now others are known to me) it wasn't true to the extent he communicated at the ceremony. Overstated and over-sold, that's all.

I am sorry that Dean's List Finalist ever came into our lives, because it caused a folly of time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$ that we wouldn't have expended because our heads were in the right place prior to D/L... it's a "crapshoot".

--Michael

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Akash... you've been talking to a bunch of people... and I've been hearing from a bunch people off of this post who see things exactly the same way I see them and had the same results as my son.

I don't know why things ALWAYS devolve on CD from the OP. I'm NOT going negative on Dean Kamen, because I think he believes exactly what was said and an awesome human being with a sincere heart. I'm just pointing out that in my experience (and now others are known to me) it wasn't true to the extent he communicated at the ceremony. Overstated and over-sold, that's all.

I am sorry that Dean's List Finalist ever came into our lives, because it caused a folly of time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$ that we wouldn't have expended because our heads were in the right place prior to D/L... it's a "crapshoot".

--Michael

I am sorry, but did you read my entire post? This is the exact thing I am trying to explain.

And I am sorry, but you repeat that line of wasted time/effort/interactions/loads of $$$ and I think overall you missed the point of the Dean's List award. You especially missed the entire point of the award if you wish your son had never received it.

But, I digress. This is the end of my posting to this thread.

Good luck to your son, he will do great things at whichever school he attends. That is all that counts at the end of the day.