Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?

[Chinmay]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Siri... "top schools want DLs"?! SHOW ME the evidence supporting this _desire_, or stop posting on this.

WHAT is the actualization, WHAT is the _results_ of the statement "top schools want DLs"?!

--Michael

How do you know they dont want deans list finalists.... Show me the evidence?

maybe they wanted your son but chose not to admit him for another reason. I sent you a PM. I'd be glad to discuss this further. I am a student at Yale, and have lots of FIRST friends here at Yale and at MIT

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Siri... "top schools want DLs"?! SHOW ME the evidence supporting this _desire_, or stop posting on this.

WHAT is the actualization, WHAT is the _results_ of the statement "top schools want DLs"?!

--Michael

I got a letter from WPI specifically commending me on being a DL finalist. That says something.

Nevertheless, HS students with high SATs and high GPAs and high class ranks will inevitably get A LOT of mail from colleges, and it'd be darn near impossible to figure out whether any of them are sent due to being a DL finalist..


Also to put the "no sure shot" of admissions in perspective, one of my friends, 3rd in the class out of ~300, plenty of APs, Drum Major/various other band commendations, was rejected from an extremely selective school for Computer Science, and upon having his guidance counselor call the admissions office to request why, she was told that since there were so many applicants for only XXX spots in the program, they had to start taking applicants with SAT math scores greater than XXX(something my friend did not have). So that shows that one great achievement will not "instantly" get you accepted.

[Akash Rastogi]

I discussed this a bunch today with people, and I wanted to point out a possibility. This post isn't any sort of attack on your feelings, Michael, it is something to think about for the students/parents who might feel a bit bitter or disheartened.

Did you ever consider that the admissions officers, school presidents and representatives who spoke to Dean all made him feel the same way they make students feel after an interview or during a campus visit?

What I mean is this: Who in their right mind WOULDN'T praise Dean Kamen upon meeting him? I mean, it's freaking DEAN KAMEN. Who wouldn't say "Wow Dean, I love your program and what you're doing for these kids! I absolutely love FIRST students!" Admissions officers and interviewers make students feel comfortable and give positive feedback. I have never, in my experience and from any friends' experiences, received negative feedback from someone affiliated with a college. It just isn't what they do. They give you feedback that is usually positive or try to make you feel comfortable and answer questions about the university, they want you to open up and talk more about yourself. I think that this is most likely what schools do when they speak to Dean, because they might just be used to it. Who would say, "Well, I don't know, Dean. FIRST isn't that huge of a determining factor in our admissions process."

The only thing Dean can interpret from and relay back to you (you being general) is what colleges tell him. Of course they love kids in FIRST. Kids in FIRST are great! But, this is probably also the same thing they tell thousands of other kids in other organizations. Schools do this to get more kids to apply so that they can have more kids to pick and choose from.

Sorry if that sounds convoluted or doesn't make sense, it is late and I have exams tomorrow, but I just want to point out that Dean is clearly extremely excited in that video. You can tell when the man is beaming with happiness, most likely because he truly believes in what representatives from various universities have told him.

I do not think it is right or valid to place any sort of blame on Dean, a man who clearly loves and believes in what he is saying. I think that what folks from universities tell people in public will always be positive and optimistic because they want everyone to think they have a chance of getting in. Why? Because they want everyone to apply there (for various reasons). And what does more applicants mean? More kids who won't get a shot at attending because their simply aren't enough seats to fill from the pool of applicants.

This is just what I think. Again, it's late, don't mind my rambling too much but I think you, Michael, might be holding Dean/FIRST accountable for something they are not at fault for. Frankly, I don't think anyone is at fault for anything here and nothing needs to be changed. For all I know, there are kids out there who applied to a school they normally would have not applied to thanks to the Dean's List award. For all I know, the only motivation they had was their award. If they get in, it is a plus. Even if they are pushed into applying, that is also a plus. The award provides proof to kids that they are doing something right. That someone is recognizing their efforts. Most often, this is all that kids need to continue striving for success.

Sorry for a random theory/explanation. I'm just trying to mediate any hard feelings DL finalists might have towards Dean/FIRST for how they have stated things regarding the award.

/phew

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Siri

FIRST isn't making that correlation; you are. Unless FIRST ever told you that meeting some benchmark and making the List would guarantee admission, all I've seen them do is correlate Dean's List with more interest from admissions officers. Dean's talked to many, and they say are particularly interested in these students. Truthful and transparent.

Correlating this extra interest from admissions officers with admission to the university is where the logic falls apart, but that's your logic, not FIRST's. In fact, Dean hasn't even promised it'd increase probabilities...

Siri... JUST watch the darn video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._Wu_E#t=88 1s

... and put yourself in the place of a SEVENTEEN year old and his parents shooting for an M.I.T. education for FOUR years with the early conclusion that it's a "crapshoot". And then hearing the words at the ceremony and thinking, Holy Cow... this is REAL!

Causing us to expend time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$ where we would not have for a "crapshoot".

But, you know what, my experience is it's "a bunch of baloney". I'm sorry, but it's true.

--Michael

[kmusa]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Siri... "top schools want DLs"?! SHOW ME the evidence supporting this _desire_, or stop posting on this.

WHAT is the actualization, WHAT is the _results_ of the statement "top schools want DLs"?!

--Michael

For 2010 and 2011 Dean's List winners, at least 8 (of 20) attended MIT, WPI, or Yale. At least 2 were accepted by MIT, and decided to attend elsewhere. 1 also had a spot reserved in Yale's graduate school, upon completion of their undergraduate degree.

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Jeff... there ABSOLUTELY is a known base-line in the objective measurements, both M.I.T. and Yale publish their data. ALL I'm talking about is the middle 50-percentile range. If you hit the numbers it's NOT a factor that has to be outweighed with other strengths or explained with a story.

For MIT's 2012 class, those numbers included an approx 17% acceptance rate for people scoring 2400 on their SAT's. Which means that more than 4 out of 5 still wouldn't be admitted. As has been mentioned, there isn't some magic number that makes admitance automatic.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I discussed this a bunch today with people, and I wanted to point out a possibility.

Did you ever consider that the admissions officers, school presidents and representatives who spoke to Dean all made him feel the same way they make students feel after an interview?

What I mean is this: Who in their right mind WOULDN'T praise Dean Kamen upon meeting him? I mean, it's freaking DEAN KAMEN. Who wouldn't say "Wow Dean, I love your program and what you're doing for these kids! I absolutely love FIRST students!" Admissions officers and interviewers make students feel comfortable and give positive feedback. I have never, in my experience and from any friends' experiences, received negative feedback from someone affiliated with a college. It just isn't what they do. They give you feedback that is usually positive or try to make you feel comfortable and answer questions about the university, they want you to open up and talk more about yourself. I think that this is most likely what schools do when they speak to Dean, because they might just be used to it. Who would say, "Well, I don't know, Dean. FIRST isn't that huge of a determining factor in our admissions process."

The only thing Dean can interpret from and relay back to you (you being general) is what colleges tell him. Of course they love kids in FIRST. Kids in FIRST are great! But, this is probably also the same thing they tell thousands of other kids in other organizations. Schools do this to get more kids to apply so that they can have more kids to pick and choose from.

Sorry if that sounds convoluted or doesn't make sense, it is late and I have exams tomorrow, but I just want to point out that Dean is clearly extremely excited in that video. You can tell when the man is beaming with happiness, most likely because he truly believes in what representatives from various universities have told him.

I do not think it is right or valid to place any sort of blame on Dean, a man who clearly loves and believes in what he is saying. I think that what folks from universities tell people in public will always be positive and optimistic because they want everyone to think they have a chance of getting in. Why? Because they want everyone to apply there (for various reasons). And what does more applicants mean? More kids who won't get a shot at attending because their simply aren't enough seats to fill from the pool of applicants.

This is just what I think. Again, it's late, don't mind my rambling too much but I think you, Michael, might be holding Dean/FIRST accountable for something they are not at fault for. Frankly, I don't think anyone is at fault for anything here and nothing needs to be changed. For all I know, there are kids out there who applied to a school they normally would have not applied to thanks to the Dean's List award. For all I know, the only motivation they had was their award. If they get in, it is a plus. Even if they are pushed into applying, that is also a plus. The award provides proof to kids that they are doing something right. That someone is recognizing their efforts. Most often, this is all that kids need to continue striving for success.

Sorry for a random theory/explanation.

/phew

Akash... you've been talking to a bunch of people... and I've been hearing from a bunch people off of this post who see things exactly the same way I see them and had the same results as my son.

I don't know why things ALWAYS devolve on CD from the OP. I'm NOT going negative on Dean Kamen, because I think he believes exactly what was said and is an awesome human being with a sincere heart. I'm just pointing out that in my experience (and now others are known to me) it wasn't true to the extent he communicated at the ceremony. Overstated and over-sold, that's all.

I am sorry that Dean's List Finalist ever came into our lives, because it caused a folly of time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$ that we wouldn't have expended because our heads were in the right place prior to D/L... it's a "crapshoot".

--Michael

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Akash... you've been talking to a bunch of people... and I've been hearing from a bunch people off of this post who see things exactly the same way I see them and had the same results as my son.

I don't know why things ALWAYS devolve on CD from the OP. I'm NOT going negative on Dean Kamen, because I think he believes exactly what was said and an awesome human being with a sincere heart. I'm just pointing out that in my experience (and now others are known to me) it wasn't true to the extent he communicated at the ceremony. Overstated and over-sold, that's all.

I am sorry that Dean's List Finalist ever came into our lives, because it caused a folly of time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$ that we wouldn't have expended because our heads were in the right place prior to D/L... it's a "crapshoot".

--Michael

I am sorry, but did you read my entire post? This is the exact thing I am trying to explain.

And I am sorry, but you repeat that line of wasted time/effort/interactions/loads of $$$ and I think overall you missed the point of the Dean's List award. You especially missed the entire point of the award if you wish your son had never received it.

But, I digress. This is the end of my posting to this thread.

Good luck to your son, he will do great things at whichever school he attends. That is all that counts at the end of the day.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by kmusa

For 2010 and 2011 Dean's List winners, at least 8 (of 20) attended MIT, WPI, or Yale. At least 2 were accepted by MIT, and decided to attend elsewhere. 1 also had a spot reserved in Yale's graduate school, upon completion of their undergraduate degree.

Karlis... this is good data regarding D/L WINNERS, Thank You!

Do you know the numbers if you remove WPI?

Also, do you know numbers for D/L Finalists? That's been the main focus of this thread.

I know about the D/L WINNER who turned down M.I.T. and the Yale graduate success. That person is an outlier... an AWESOME outlier in their own league!! COMPLETE admiration and respect for that person...

--Michael

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Alexa... you may be right about a lot or even the majority of FIRST Dean's list Finalists and their academic (objective measurements) and their extracurriculars / recommendations / essays (subjective measurements) NOT being good enough for M.I.T. and Yale despite having Dean's List Finalist in their quiver.

But, in my son's case, he applied with a 99.6 GPA, 13 AP-level and 13 PreAP-level courses, HIGH SAT score (5th highest in his class of 604 seniors), FOUR _killer_ recommendations/assessments (including ONE on FIRST letterhead)... and AP Scholar... and an award-winning poet and writer in his district of ELEVEN high schools and in Texas... and FOUR years of _competitive_ marching band and concert band playing TWO different instruments; the clarinet and the bassoon. The rest of his life was pretty-much dominated by FIRST and competition robotics, hence the D/L Award.

AFTER he received his 2012 Dean's List Finalist award, the following summer he took a _non-paid_ internship at the FIRST Central Region/Texas (Alamo) where he worked projects, built a 3D printer from the open-source RepRap model, built a holonomic drive FRC demo-robot for the district, and took that robot and FTC/FLL robots on the road around San Antonio to PROMOTE FIRST ROBOTICS where he presented to/spoke with about ONE THOUSAND middle-school students (SEVEN events total) who were attending summer PREP (pre-engineering) programs at area colleges.

STILL, it wasn't enough for those, at M.I.T. and Yale, who are represented to "love" and "want" Dean's List Finalist applicants...

--Michael

I'm going to be blunt here: it honestly sounds like you're just bitter that your son was not accepted to these schools and are searching for a reason why. Nowhere does FIRST claim the Dean's List guarantees you admittance.

Seriously, going to MIT or Yale is awesome if you can get in, but it's not the be all and end all of your life. Smart people are going to do well no matter what. I don't understand why you're so up in arms about this.

Also, if you're really serious about being sorry that your son was a Dean's List finalist, I'm sure FIRST would allow you to return the award. If you were pushing your son to do things specifically to win that award, then you were in it for the wrong reasons. I sincerely hope you're not saying that you/your son took that internship and promoted FIRST just so he could put it on his application for MIT or Yale.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

I'm going to be blunt here: it honestly sounds like you're just bitter that your son was not accepted to these schools and are searching for a reason why. Nowhere does FIRST claim the Dean's List guarantees you admittance.

I don't understand why you're so up in arms about this.

Also, if you're really serious about being sorry that your son was a Dean's List finalist, I'm sure FIRST would allow you to return the award. If you were pushing your son to do things specifically to win that award, then you were in it for the wrong reasons.

Alexa... you're accusing me of motivations that just aren't there... mind-reading happens, I've observed, on CD a lot.

I _never_ used the word "guarantees".

I won't be involved with Dean's List again for my team unless they change the "pitch" regarding the _desirability_ of M.I.T. and Yale... that's my prerogative as a 54 year old man whose lived a lot of life.

Accusing me of possibly "pushing" my son is laughable IF you knew my son. The fact is ALL we knew about Dean's List PRIOR to him winning the award was what is in the Game Manual, TIMS, and some entries on CD. We didn't know ANYTHING about colleges desiring D/L until AFTER he won the award... which we had COMPLETELY forgotten about his submission so when his name was announced the reaction was, "Huh?! What award did they just announce? ALRIGHT, Dean's List way to go!!"... LOL

We had NO IDEA about how much FIRST valued the award... it was an interesting and pleasant surprise.

--Michael

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Alexa... you're accusing me of motivations that just aren't there... this happens, I've observed, on CD a lot.

I _never_ used the word "guarantees".

I won't be involved with Dean's List again for my team unless they change the "pitch" regarding the _desirability_ of M.I.T. and Yale... that's my prerogative as a 54 year old man whose lived a lot of life.

Accusing me of possibly "pushing" my son is laughable IF you knew my son. The fact is ALL we knew about Dean's List PRIOR to him winning the award was what is in the Game Manual, TIMS, and some entries on CD. We didn't know ANYTHING about colleges desiring D/L until AFTER he won the award.

--Michael

I still don't understand why that makes any difference whatsoever? Would your son not have applied to MIT or taken the internship or promoted FIRST around San Antonio if he hadn't won the award? If not, why not?

I just don't understand what you're angry about. He was a Dean's List finalist and still didn't get into MIT or Yale. So what? I'm sure he'll be fine wherever he goes.

[Anupam Goli]

I don't understand why you particularly think that Dean's List is meant to be an award to peddle to colleges. I think the original intent was to recognize special individuals in the FIRST community, sort of like the All-Stars of FIRST. Just because someone has spent a lot of time and effort into FIRST does not equate to the required attitude, personality, and dedication needed for certain institutes.

I currently attend college at Georgia Tech, one of the top engineering universities in the world (ranked 6th I think?), after being denied from CalTech and Carnegie Mellon. I was really sad and mad when the decisions came in, seeing my classmates who wrote FIRST in their application but only showed up once or twice a week get into MIT and CalTech, or leaders who were never interested in improving or winning, and only saw robotics as some club getting all of these leadership scholarships and getting accepted into places like Stanford and Yale. College admissions are really a black box. You don't know what the others put on their application to get them into the institute, and you never know if your application viewer knows how important FIRST is or not. It's really unfortunate that arbitrary test scores and academic grades are the only constants that can measure the caliber of a student (quite poorly though), but it's not the end of the world if your son didn't get into MIT or Yale.

People have said this before, and now that I'm in college, I'll say it now. The only benefit of going to MIT over Georgia Tech in my case, would've been learning to pay off thousands of dollars in debt and bragging rights of going to the #1 school in ECE rather than the #5 school. The education is the same. I have friends who LEARN LESS in their first 2 years at MIT than their first 2 years at Georgia Tech. Does it really matter that your son won't get to say he went to the #1 institute? Even if it gets him a better paying job, he still has to pay off the massive student loans that an institute like MIT makes you take to pay off their tuition. It's not the end of the world. Know that just because you do FIRST, you aren't going to get into MIT. However, know that because you do FIRST, you will have an engineering background that will make you succeed no matter where you go.

[PayneTrain]

60 of FIRST's best have been recognized for their great efforts in promoting FIRST and STEM programs through their community, and being the light that shines brightest among us, and draws us together to become something greater than ourselves. Not all of them will be accepted to an Ivy League institution, but they are still people worth recognizing and likely have the ability to succeed and catalyze communities wherever they go.

Tens of thousands of kids participate in FIRST at its highest level every year. Some of them go to Ivy League schools. Some go to community college. Most go to engineering schools or state universities with engineering programs. Very few of them receive the highest honor bestowed upon a FIRST student.

I didn't get into the college I wanted. I still love FIRST. I still go to a university I like. I still wake up every day with the rest of the world and try to make myself better. The sun still rises in the East, sets in the West, and robotics meetings still go on.

I don't feel like FIRST owes me anything. If anything, I owe almost everything I am to my religion, my family, and my other religion, which is being an active participant in FIRST after I have to take my hands off the joysticks for the last time.

There is a Dean's List Finalist from 422 this year. He has no idea where he wants to go to college. I don't even know if he's even visited any schools. But he is a remarkable kid that is going to be and Eagle Scout, an FLL mentor, an outreach guru, and a future FRC team captain... he is our role model. He is an incredibly bright kid with a heart of gold and he gives the work I put into my old team more meaning now than it did when I was a student.

We didn't recognize him because we feel like he deserves to go to Oxford on a full ride and this award is going to give it to him. We recognized him, along with the judges, because he represents the best we have to offer; a combination of his innate talent of getting people from all walks of life to gravitate to him, and to a lesser extent, those of us who facilitate the support system to make his work more impactful.

If you are making every move in your life and your son's life on getting him into Yale or MIT, I guess that's your prerogative. If your intent was to use this award to catapult your son to this objective, then you're just totally missing the point, man, and there is no other way to say that.

Think long and hard before you continue the crusade of passive-aggressive blame assignment on an award and the founder of the program that has enabled so many people to come together and become something greater than the sum of their works, including you and your sun.

Unless your son did something completely out of the ordinary, such as create a nuclear reactor from a coke can and some spare parts lying around in your garage, admission into high end universities is completely arbitrary and dependent on factors outside of FIRST. You may as well trust your luck for admission to a linear congruential generator generated output. Feeling entitled to admission is just setting both of you up for disappointment.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

I still don't understand why that makes any difference whatsoever? Would your son not have applied to MIT or taken the internship or promoted FIRST around San Antonio if he hadn't won the award? If not, why not?

I just don't understand what you're angry about.

Alexa... he was ALWAYS applying to M.I.T., since the 8th grade. It's just that the mindset for ALL of us was it's a "crapshoot"... worth a shot, and a visit to the campus integrated into a family vacation... that's all.

And NO, he would not have taken the _unpaid_ internship with FIRST and taken a pass on a summer job that paid over $5k if not for the representations at the Champs ceremony. We could've used those $$ for his upcoming college expenses, but we decided he should double-down on FIRST given the good direction things seemed to be trending from his D/L award and that he should repay FIRST with further volunteering.

My son was, and has been, a HUGE promoter of FIRST in San Antonio for _years_... HOW do you think he won Dean's List?!

I'm NOT "angry"... you're mind-reading again, you shouldn't do that... ;-)

--Michael