2013 Pine Tree Regional

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by ehfeinberg

But aren't you allowed to do that? (R80, R81)
R80 Blue box

The assumption is that if their on-board compressor is not working, they used a different compressor to fill the tanks, which is not allowed.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by ehfeinberg

But aren't you allowed to do that? (R80, R81)
R80 Blue box

Not if they also have an on-board compressor. The rules specify one compressor.

R80
Compressed air on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12VDC, 1.05 cfm flow rate. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the ROBOT.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

I heard that they had pre charged their pneumatic system because their on board compressor wasn't working, so they had to let out the air.

It's a rather strict reading of the R80, but the rule does say "Compressed air on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor." (And, if the off-board compressor used was not a legal compressor, that's potentially two violations of one rule.)

The R80 violation would then trigger multiple tournament rules that would remove the robot from the match and/or disqualify the alliance.

[PVCpirate]

I think it has to be powered by the robot, and it wasn't. This is a secondhand account I heard from someone on the winning alliance, so I'm not really sure.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Not if they also have an on-board compressor. The rules specify one compressor.

Maybe I'm "lawyering" this rule a bit too much, but IMO it doesn't say that they can only have one compressor, just that only one compressor may supply air.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Maybe I'm "lawyering" this rule a bit too much, but IMO it doesn't say that they can only have one compressor, just that only one compressor may supply air.

One and only one may supply air. That one may be located either on-board or off-board. If they had removed the on-board compressor from the system somehow, then I think they would have been perfectly fine (provided that R86 was met). If they did not, then there exists the possibility that it could turn on during the match, thus supplying air, thus having two compressors supplying air to the same system during the same match, though at two different times, thus potentially creating a rather nasty rules debate if the team gets called on violating a robot rule (and thus not passing inspection, see T06 for the aftermath).

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by EricH

One and only one may supply air. That one may be located either on-board or off-board. If they had removed the on-board compressor from the system somehow, then I think they would have been perfectly fine (provided that R86 was met). If they did not, then there exists the possibility that it could turn on during the match, thus supplying air, thus having two compressors supplying air to the same system during the same match, though at two different times, thus potentially creating a rather nasty rules debate if the team gets called on violating a robot rule (and thus not passing inspection, see T06 for the aftermath).

Now that I read the rule again, I'm not convinced. R80 prevents compressed air from being provided from multiple compressors, it does not prevent the potential for air to be provided from multiple compressors. I know this is essentially impossible to enforce, but as the rule is written, you could have an offboard and an onboard compressoras long as only one was used, assuming all other rules are met (which is sounds like they weren't, in this case).

Footnote: If this isn't lawyering the rules, I don't know what is.

[ehfeinberg]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Now that I read the rule again, I'm not convinced. R80 prevents compressed air from being provided from multiple compressors, it does not prevent the potential for air to be provided from multiple compressors. I know this is essentially impossible to enforce, but as the rule is written, you could have an offboard and an onboard compressoras long as only one was used, assuming all other rules are met (which is sounds like they weren't, in this case).

Footnote: If this isn't lawyering the rules, I don't know what is.

I am pretty sure this is the correct interpretation. In 2011, 449 had two identical (and both 100% legal) pneumatic systems, one on the robot and one off the robot. Before every match we would use our off-board pneumatic system to precharge the storage tanks on the robot. All the inspectors seemed fine with this, and we used this technique through 2 different competitions. The inspectors just required that they could inspect both boards to make sure that they would both be legal if they were on the robot.

However, the 2011 wording is different from the 2013 wording, and it is always up to the Inspector on whether you can or can't do this.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by ehfeinberg

I am pretty sure this is the correct interpretation. In 2011, 449 had two identical (and both 100% legal) pneumatic systems, one on the robot and one off the robot. Before every match we would use our off-board pneumatic system to precharge the storage tanks on the robot. All the inspectors seemed fine with this, and we used this technique through 2 different competitions. The inspectors just required that they could inspect both boards to make sure that they would both be legal if they were on the robot.

However, the 2011 wording is different from the 2013 wording, and it is always up to the Inspector on whether you can or can't do this.

If you then used the on board compressor during the match, it would be illegal. R80 only permits air from one source.

[Bochek]

2386 was told they where not allowed to use their (illegal) offboard compressor. and this was unrelated to why they sat dead in match F2. Their digital sidecar power cable had come loose and they where not allowed time to fix it.

They got it fixed between F2 and F3, charged their air tanks with their onboard compressor, then went to swap their battery. The lead robot inspector came over and told them that if they changed their battery they would have to drain then refill their air tanks. With no time left to do that and no time to argue the ruling they (2386) decided to run on the same battery as they had not moved in the last match.

Also between match F1 and F2 a bearing exploded in their shifters. It was quickly replaced with wraps of electrical tape.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Bochek

They got it fixed between F2 and F3, charged their air tanks with their onboard compressor, then went to swap their battery. The lead robot inspector came over and told them that if they changed their battery they would have to drain then refill their air tanks. With no time left to do that and no time to argue the ruling they (2386) decided to run on the same battery as they had not moved in the last match.

What? That's a common practice, and not prohibited in the rules. Since when is that a rule?

[Jay O'Donnell]

I only have good things to say about this new regional. It is easily one of the best events I have been to in my time with FIRST. The volunteers and refs were nice and did their jobs well. The judges were awesome as usual, especially the ones listening for chairmans presentations. Then of course the competition. There were great robots in every match, and the finals were the best ones I've seen all year. On a personal note, a HUGE congratulations to my good friends from 3467, the Windham Windup, for winning their first regional. I know you guys went through a lot this year, and you definitely deserved a win. As Angry Eric said, "I'm just gonna say this now, but these guys have the fastest climber on the east coast." Also, if anyone from the Pine Tree planning committee is reading this, you did a perfect job, thank you. I'm very hopeful to attend this regional in the future.

There was also something that happened during the award ceremonies that I will never forget. When the rookie highest seed came up, it was originally given to team 4564, although it was supposed to go to team 4473. This was later fixed, and 4564 was told they could keep that trophy as well as they did not want to take it away from them. However, as 4473 came up for the real rookie highest seed award, members from 4564 came down and gave the trophies they received to members from 4473. It was truly amazing to see two rookie teams handling themselves so professionally. Also note that 4564 would go on to win Rookie All Star later on.

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by Gregor

What? That's a common practice, and not prohibited in the rules. Since when is that a rule?

I later asked for clarification on that rule on behalf of 2386. After searching through the rule book, and not finding anything indicating that rule I was told to post the question to the Q&A if I wanted an answer.

- Bochek

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Bochek

I later asked for clarification on that rule on behalf of 2386. After searching through the rule book, and not finding anything indicating that rule I was told to post the question to the Q&A if I wanted an answer.

- Bochek

You probably should post it then, just to make FIRST aware that this happened at Pine Tree.

[Gregor]

I'm being a bit pedantic now, but does the LRI have authority in THE ARENA to prohibit this?

5.5.2
At each event, the Lead ROBOT Inspector (LRI) has final authority on the legality of any COMPONENT, MECHANISM, or ROBOT. Inspectors may re-Inspect ROBOTS to ensure compliance with the rules.

5.5.3
The Head Referee has the ultimate authority in the ARENA during the event, but may receive input from additional sources, e.g. Game Designers, FIRST personnel, and technical staff. The Head Referee rulings are final. The Head Referee will not review recorded replays under any circumstances.

Sounds like the head referee's call to make.