UNgracious UNprofessionalism

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by Seth Mallory

Our program has all of that and a lot more. Your statment supports my view that you must create the program that works for you. Other people must follow their own style. That does not make it wrong. It just makes it different like people are different. The more that I look the more I have come to realize that I think or what Dean thinks is not the best for everyone and they must find what works for them.

Absolutely agree. Just wanted to ensure that programs are built for more than just getting students into STEM or at least with the goal of that. I know many teams just don't have the man power, resources or what not to go beyond that, but the target of FIRST according to their mission to me, is inspiring more than just students following STEM careers.

[flargen507]

I have noticed a significant number of similar threads, and to be honest similar posts in this thread about how many of these comments are ungracious, unprofessional, and sometimes seem predatory and rude. And your probably right. Responding to the original poster from team 701, I am from team 159 and I was also at Colorado this weekend (which I think may be part of the reason why you are posting this). I must also say that we are coming off of a very tough regional, so I apologize in advance if this sounds overly harsh. I think what you must realize (for most of your teams if I'm honest) is that your are in the upper echelon of FIRST teams. Many robots at any given regional have trouble scoring any points at all. In our case, our robot only moved in 3 matches the entire weekend (yes that includes practice, all of which we attended). And yes we are a student built robot, and are almost fanatically proud about being so. While it sounds great in practice, and in principle I agree that going around accusing teams that their robot was built by their mentors is unprofessional and can be rude. But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved. Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids. And as Libbey Kamen said, you cannot judge other teams for the way they inspire the kids. So in that case as the better team, the one who is having the more successful regional, be the better team and realize that it is very hard for a group of high school students to look at failure in the face, especially in a competition where the differences in performance can be so vast. Understand what you would feel like if some other team has a more beautiful, more successful robot even after you worked so hard and understand sometimes you just need to blow off some steam. And as for the smashing other robots, I can say that I am guilty of that as well. We smashed the robot of one of the best teams at our regional (in one of only 3 matches we functioned). I am proud to say that I cheered, because it was at that point it was the only real thing our robot had done. Was it perhaps a little callous? Yes. But they were still able to repair it before the next match, and they are now going to nationals, so honestly they can't complain too much. But that moment was what really defined our entire season of work, and if that cost another team some hard work and stress then so be it. Again, this may sound a little angry, and it is probably a little too soon after such a hard loss to see this clearly, but I still think that both sides of this issue need to be observed.

[StevenB]

Originally Posted by flargen507

But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved. Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids.

I have to disagree with this one hundred percent.

Originally Posted by Jeffy

Curious what teams do to discourage these counter-productive notions throughout a team.

I take it a little at a time as it comes. Clip from this weekend: I was at SVR and happened to be outside 254's pit when they came back from a match which had destroyed the belt inside one of their climber arms. They rolled the robot into the pit and four students immediately began to swap in a replacement. It was so cool to watch them in action, while a couple of mentors basically looked on.

Today I was talking to a parent. She began, "And if you noticed, when the Cheesy Poof's arm broke, it was all the mentors working on it." What do you say? "Actually, I was there when that happened - and it was all the students working on the 'bot."

This kind of reaction is a fundamental human tendency. There isn't a magic solution that cures it. I simply try to maintain and display a confidence that we could in fact be like them if we had the same level of passion and energy.

[Negative 9]

Originally Posted by flargen507

Many robots at any given regional have trouble scoring any points at all.

Which is exactly why these teams need to be working alongside experienced mentors so that they don't end up with a barely functional robot. It takes a very exceptional group of students to build a competitive FRC robot without any guidance.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by flargen507

In our case, our robot only moved in 3 matches the entire weekend (yes that includes practice, all of which we attended). And yes we are a student built robot, and are almost fanatically proud about being so.

Such pride seems misplaced. "We built an ineffective machine, all by ourselves! Yay for us!" It sounds like you're describing a bad situation (robot isn't very good) with a simple solution (having mentors help).

Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids.

If you can't find a way to "inspire" your kids other than denigrating others' good work, I am sad for your team. Why isn't it inspiring to see what the students on those other teams were able to do by partnering with their mentors? Why don't you encourage your kids to go talk with those other teams to get an idea of what really makes them great, instead of feeding them the fiction that they're only great because the robots were built by professionals?

And as for the smashing other robots, I can say that I am guilty of that as well. We smashed the robot of one of the best teams at our regional (in one of only 3 matches we functioned). I am proud to say that I cheered, because it was at that point it was the only real thing our robot had done.

You don't have to be ashamed about "smashing" another robot, but it is definitely not something to be proud of.

[edit]Unless the smashing was intentional, in which case you should be ashamed, and you should apologize. If it were up to me, I'd issue each member of your team his or her own personal yellow card for such an action.[/edit]

Was it perhaps a little callous? Yes. But they were still able to repair it before the next match, and they are now going to nationals, so honestly they can't complain too much. But that moment was what really defined our entire season of work, and if that cost another team some hard work and stress then so be it.

It looks like your team has some growing up to do. I hope it happens before you lose the opportunity to inspire your older students to feel good about bettering themselves instead of bringing others down.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

If you can't find a way to "inspire" your kids other than denigrating others' good work, I am sad for your team. Why isn't it inspiring to see what the students on those other teams were able to do by partnering with their mentors? Why don't you encourage your kids to go talk with those other teams to get an idea of what really makes them great, instead of feeding them the fiction that they're only great because the robots were built by professionals?
...
You don't have to be ashamed about "smashing" another robot, but it is definitely not something to be proud of.

Alan, I would argue that you SHOULD be ashamed of "smashing" another robot. Senseless destruction of material is not something we should tolerate. You can play effective defense without damaging the other robots. (Arguably, you can play MORE effective defense without damaging them). As someone who has had our robot banged around a fair bit this year I can say that teams that make dirty hits with the intent of doing damage just irk me.


Regarding the other part I quoted. I'm going to channel my inner IKE for a bit and recommend that the poster read a book called Tribal Leadership. There's an interesting bit in it about about the language used by groups in various stages. Sounds like the person you quoted is in the "I'm great (and you're not)" stage. I suggest they observe other teams and how they operate. Emulate them and see if we can realize that we can all be great.

[jee7s]

You know, I had written a long reply to this with all sorts of pointed comments about the flawed logic here. But, when I tried to preview it, I lost it. This was probably for the best.

I'll say that it sure seems like flargen507 sees FIRST as a zero sum game. That one team's success is due to another team's failure. And, that justifies teaching high school kids that there's no reason to improve because those better "mentor bots" are somehow illegitimate.

I've been there. I've been with the team when their robot didn't move AT ALL for a regional. I've been there with the team that poured their heart and soul into their robot and didn't get to play on Saturday afternoon. But, as they have reminded me, I told them that they did hard work, they learned, and they made progress to being a better team. That's what really counts.

And, for the remainder of my comments, I refer you to JVN:

http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/02/open-...to-haters.html
http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/03/anoth...re-change.html

[Siri]

Originally Posted by flargen507

In our case, our robot only moved in 3 matches the entire weekend (yes that includes practice, all of which we attended). And yes we are a student built robot, and are almost fanatically proud about being so. While it sounds great in practice, and in principle I agree that going around accusing teams that their robot was built by their mentors is unprofessional and can be rude. But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved. Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids...We smashed the robot of one of the best teams at our regional (in one of only 3 matches we functioned). I am proud to say that I cheered, because it was at that point it was the only real thing our robot had done.

Just a question: did you ask for help? (If not, why not? If so, what happened?)

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by flargen507

I have noticed a significant number of similar threads, and to be honest similar posts in this thread about how many of these comments are ungracious, unprofessional, and sometimes seem predatory and rude. And your probably right. Responding to the original poster from team 701, I am from team 159 and I was also at Colorado this weekend (which I think may be part of the reason why you are posting this). I must also say that we are coming off of a very tough regional, so I apologize in advance if this sounds overly harsh. I think what you must realize (for most of your teams if I'm honest) is that your are in the upper echelon of FIRST teams. Many robots at any given regional have trouble scoring any points at all. In our case, our robot only moved in 3 matches the entire weekend (yes that includes practice, all of which we attended). And yes we are a student built robot, and are almost fanatically proud about being so. While it sounds great in practice, and in principle I agree that going around accusing teams that their robot was built by their mentors is unprofessional and can be rude. But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved. Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids. And as Libbey Kamen said, you cannot judge other teams for the way they inspire the kids. So in that case as the better team, the one who is having the more successful regional, be the better team and realize that it is very hard for a group of high school students to look at failure in the face, especially in a competition where the differences in performance can be so vast. Understand what you would feel like if some other team has a more beautiful, more successful robot even after you worked so hard and understand sometimes you just need to blow off some steam. And as for the smashing other robots, I can say that I am guilty of that as well. We smashed the robot of one of the best teams at our regional (in one of only 3 matches we functioned). I am proud to say that I cheered, because it was at that point it was the only real thing our robot had done. Was it perhaps a little callous? Yes. But they were still able to repair it before the next match, and they are now going to nationals, so honestly they can't complain too much. But that moment was what really defined our entire season of work, and if that cost another team some hard work and stress then so be it. Again, this may sound a little angry, and it is probably a little too soon after such a hard loss to see this clearly, but I still think that both sides of this issue need to be observed.

Holy crap. This is NOT the sort of attitude I expect from a 4 time Regional Chairman's Award winning team (with an EI to boot). Also, 159 has been at championship each year from 1998 to 2011.

I can't say for sure if you were part of 159 for all this time, or joined more recently (say, in 2012), but wow.

You need a really big attitude check, and to take a serious look at the lessons you are (intentionally, or unintentionally) teaching the students in your care.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by flargen507

But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved.

I've had experiences like this first hand, both as a mentor and a student and it is what drives me to work to the point of exhaustion (as a mentor) with the hope that I can prevent it from ever happening again.

I do not want to debate the mentor vs student built topic here, but I can assure you that many mentors that assist in the construction of their teams robot do it so that the students on the team can feel as successful as possible. There is nothing worse than watching a student pour their heart and soul into a project just to watch it fail in a high profile environment and knowing that some little thing could have been done to make that successful.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by flargen507

While it sounds great in practice, and in principle I agree that going around accusing teams that their robot was built by their mentors is unprofessional and can be rude. But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved. Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids.

I've said this John Abele quote many times, but I'll repeat it here since it's especially poignant. "There are two ways to compete in this world, you can rise above your opponents, or you can drag them down". I don't see how there's anything to be gained by criticizing your opponents to your students, and lying to them about how their robots were built. Take a look at this video where I talk about ethical competition and how it applies to young people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...kEVgQ#t=27 5s (Starts at 4:34, becomes super relevant at 7:08)

What is there to be gained by discrediting your opponent? There are two types of people in this world. Those who are inspired be excellence, and those who are put off by it. Those who see excellence and are inspired by it are the ones who will eventually achieve it. Those who see excellence and feel the need to discredit it in effort to shield themselves from their own shortcomings are the ones who will have an almost impossible time trying to improve themselves.

You are right, no one is in any position to judge how you choose to inspire your team. I just hope that you can see that there may be some flaws in the path you're choosing.

[ablatner]

Originally Posted by bEdhEd

...The topic I want to discuss is the amount of ungracious and unprofessional comments left by some FIRST participants accusing these incredibly hard working and productive teams of having robots that are mostly built by corporate sponsors, or robots that are barely built by students.

This topic pops often. Here is a big thread on it. It all depends on the goals of a team. Some prioritize winning, others inspiring, and others the students learning and running their own team. There isn't a right or wrong choice here, but many people have very strong opinions about it. I have my own, but I'd rather not beat a dead horse.

Libby Kamen says it well:

Originally Posted by Libby K

There are approximately a zillion threads on this, and it always turns into an accusatory and awful discussion. If people want to discuss this, please do so calmly and without internet-rage.

If you're asking for my $0.02, whatever a team needs to do to accomplish goals - as defined by that team and their dynamic (I'm talking mentors and students here)- is what works for them, and what they should do. So long as everyone on the team agrees on their process - that's their process, and that's that. Outsiders don't get to 'judge', because it's not their team.
...
Where teams encounter problems is when one "side" tries to "take over" the process and the team as a whole isn't happy. That's what I think you're trying to get at here, and I think that deserves some discussion.

Chief Delphi always gets weird in threads like these. Keep it civil if you're gonna post here.

Keep it civil here.

[bEdhEd]

Originally Posted by ablatner

This topic pops often. Here is a big thread on it. It all depends on the goals of a team. Some prioritize winning, others inspiring, and others the students learning and running their own team. There isn't a right or wrong choice here, but many people have very strong opinions about it. I have my own, but I'd rather not beat a dead horse.

Libby Kamen says it well:



Keep it civil here.

I definitely want to keep it civil. I dislike internet arguments just like anyone else. It is my opinion that teams should be partners with industries, but it's not a strong enough opinion that I would get uncivil about. And I think that if teams do this, they don't have to prioritize at all and can be everything you mentioned. They can be a winning, inspiring team that is run by students, yet assisted by professionals, so new knowledge can be gained, instead of having older students teach new students what they know and perpetuating their knowledge yet hardly progressing it, whereas new mentors can always bring new ideas from what they have been trained and educated in.

[class1234567]

Originally Posted by bEdhEd

I actually find it a compliment that a 100% student built robot can be mistaken for an industry built robot. A 100% student built robot is a great thing, but it certainly isn't something to brag about. .

Up until I read this I completely agreed with you thoughts. One would think having a 100% robot built by students is a great thing, and would love to brag about that. Because being a student my self there is nothing greater than seeing what my contributions to the robot have done. Even if we win or lose the joy and happiness given to us students is what building the robot was about in the first place.

[bEdhEd]

Originally Posted by class1234567

Up until I read this I completely agreed with you thoughts. One would think having a 100% robot built by students is a great thing, and would love to brag about that. Because being a student my self there is nothing greater than seeing what my contributions to the robot have done. Even if we win or lose the joy and happiness given to us students is what building the robot was about in the first place.

I used to have the same view as you when I was a student. I LOVED to mention that our robot was all student built. I understand the great feeling of accomplishment you have, but as i mature and start seeing the FIRST program through the eyes of a mentor, I find that leaving it all to the students can create a gap between the student-mentor partnership that is so vital to a well rounded team. And I say that it can, not that it will create that gap. There just has to be a balance,