need help with defense with formulas for match scouting

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by Coach Norm

I am an ex basketball coach with 22 years of coaching experience (high school and college) as well as coaching several other sports for many years. As a basketball coach, I am of the opinion that making a player get to their sweet spot (so to speak) makes a player work harder to be comfortable. If they are uncomfortable, then you can begin to effect them.
.......
Patterns are easy to predict if you watch enough matches. Coaches of sports teams watch endless hours of video and use all kinds of ways to try and predict the patterns of not only plays but even more importantly specific players.

Excellent observations, Norm. Basketball is the most similar sport to Robotics with its multiple players and contrasting flows.
Defense gets little glamour and very, very few teams have designed for it this year.
Nonetheless, in the NCAA Final Four for basketball, Louisville pulled it off last night with its relentless full court press, that eventually got into Wichita States "head" late in the game, when they committed three turnovers in one minute after none in the first 26 minutes. It changed the outcome of the game.
Syracuse, on the other hand, with it's noted 2-3 zone defense, fell short against the run and gun (cyclers) of Michigan.

So, how to scout for defense? I like this approach:

Originally Posted by D.Allred

SPAM has the best formula for scouting defense I have found. They show the formula in "Poor Man's Scouting System" published here on CD Media. Essentially they count "defensive maneuvers" during a match and assign a coefficient value to per move.

I'm sure they can explain it better than my attempt.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2769

Using a subjective coefficient requires a well trained scout team. At the CMP with over 100 matches, this can be tiresome. Share with another team and provide much caffeine.


Defense will most likely be the deciding factor in the CMP divisions and on Einstein.

I think we will see some <84" pyramid shot blockers to shut down cyclers, as well as very effective mid court "presses".

The strategies will align and the winners will be on the alliance with other ones whose shooters do not jam.
That, and autonomous is more important this year than any before.

[Coach Norm]

Defense is an attitude for sure.

You cannot turn a robot/drive team into one if they do not have time to practice it or get comfortable with it. Penalties are easy to accumulate trying to play defense.

BTW, we started the year using SPAM's system at Hub City in Lubbock but defense evaluation was all over the place. What one student saw was not anything like what others might see. The data was not usable for us due to this factor. The scouting system was very effective though not in match evaluation but also in helping with alliance selections.

At Alamo, we had two students who were scout leads. One or both of them watched all matches. We also shared scouting with a few other teams (801 and 1592) using our system based on SPAM's system. We had students who watched videos before the tournament to get an idea of teams that had competed already. We had a few other students who watched defense for special defensive focus by teams. Two of the teams using the scout system were in the finals against each other.

2789 was chosen for defensive abilities and proved their worth in the matches for us. 4063 was a pyramid shooter/cycle runner but also played opportunistic defense when allowed. They interfered with Torque on a few occasions as they were moving from end to end.

The difference in matches comes down to a few frisbees scored or not. Defense is not about shutting a team down completely but limiting their production.

[Wayne TenBrink]

A lot of the teams looking for somebody to play defense also expect some offense, too. Our second round pick list consists of teams that can score in autonomous (#1) and can hang for 10 (#). After that, we try scout for "field presence". Field presence is a subjective quality that is difficult to assign a number to (and even harder to get consistent data on from student scouts). On each team's match scouting sheet, we have a "general notes" section where the scouts check off applicable items from a list of "strengths" (fast chassis, always on task, good driver, etc.) and "weaknesses" (penalty magnet, slow, no obvious game plan, etc. During pit scouting, we ask teams how they feel about playing defense, note their drive train & quality of construction, etc. In summary, we don't specifically scout for defense. We look for teams that will be an asset on offense, but have what it takes to step into a defensive role. If any of the robots on the alliance have a partial breakdown during a match and can't score, then they go on defense and the "defense" bot goes on offense.

[Coach Norm]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

A lot of the teams looking for somebody to play defense also expect some offense, too. Our second round pick list consists of teams that can score in autonomous (#1) and can hang for 10 (#). After that, we try scout for "field presence". Field presence is a subjective quality that is difficult to assign a number to (and even harder to get consistent data on from student scouts). On each team's match scouting sheet, we have a "general notes" section where the scouts check off applicable items from a list of "strengths" (fast chassis, always on task, good driver, etc.) and "weaknesses" (penalty magnet, slow, no obvious game plan, etc. During pit scouting, we ask teams how they feel about playing defense, note their drive train & quality of construction, etc. In summary, we don't specifically scout for defense. We look for teams that will be an asset on offense, but have what it takes to step into a defensive role. If any of the robots on the alliance have a partial breakdown during a match and can't score, then they go on defense and the "defense" bot goes on offense.

Well said Wayne. Kudos to you and your team.

[2789_B_Garcia]

Originally Posted by Coach Norm

For pyramid shooter/cycle runners, make them work hard to get up and down the court. Middle cuts, side cuts and under the tower cuts are all moves that a defensive bot should be able to do. FRC 2789 did an excellent job of all of these at the Lone Star and Alamo Regionals. In Semi Final 2 match of Alamo, they occupied two other robots for 100+ seconds of the total 240 seconds for those two robots. That time equates to stealing cycles from their strategy. Martin did an excellent job of driving as well as taking coaching to change strategy throughout the matches. Watch the middle of the field in this video for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM1WIp2qe-I Notice that on several occasions, the opposing robots have to take a different path to get to the feeding station thus stealing time off the clock.

Defense of a cycle runner is not just trying to push them around but rather making some contact, not afraid to be physical, and cutting off paths.

Patterns are easy to predict if you watch enough matches. Coaches of sports teams watch endless hours of video and use all kinds of ways to try and predict the patterns of not only plays but even more importantly specific players.

Martin is an amazing driver, and we did pour over hours of web streams as a team to analyze strategies for our zone defense. What made our job easy was that we were on an alliance with three very different robots that approached the game in different ways. We were able to tangle up several opposing alliances because of the simple fact that they shot from and fed from the same spots as their partners. The other essential ingredient in the recipe of ur success was how well we coordinated to your field marshaling, Coach Norm. When you needed us to set picks, you told us, and that kept the offense up and running.

Since everyone's using sports analogies, I'm going with my favorite sport: football. I think that the key to being a good 2nd pick has been knowing when to play linebacker to stuff the running game of the opposing alliance, and knowing when to play fullback to push defenders out of the way. We don't have a fancy robot, but our smart driveteam and scouting goes a long way

[dellagd]

Originally Posted by Kristian Calhoun

* and driver.

Time to implement the rating of penalties assessed and Karthik's Strategy video suggestion of "time to jump to driverstation"