UNgracious UNprofessionalism

[flargen507]

I have noticed a significant number of similar threads, and to be honest similar posts in this thread about how many of these comments are ungracious, unprofessional, and sometimes seem predatory and rude. And your probably right. Responding to the original poster from team 701, I am from team 159 and I was also at Colorado this weekend (which I think may be part of the reason why you are posting this). I must also say that we are coming off of a very tough regional, so I apologize in advance if this sounds overly harsh. I think what you must realize (for most of your teams if I'm honest) is that your are in the upper echelon of FIRST teams. Many robots at any given regional have trouble scoring any points at all. In our case, our robot only moved in 3 matches the entire weekend (yes that includes practice, all of which we attended). And yes we are a student built robot, and are almost fanatically proud about being so. While it sounds great in practice, and in principle I agree that going around accusing teams that their robot was built by their mentors is unprofessional and can be rude. But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved. Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids. And as Libbey Kamen said, you cannot judge other teams for the way they inspire the kids. So in that case as the better team, the one who is having the more successful regional, be the better team and realize that it is very hard for a group of high school students to look at failure in the face, especially in a competition where the differences in performance can be so vast. Understand what you would feel like if some other team has a more beautiful, more successful robot even after you worked so hard and understand sometimes you just need to blow off some steam. And as for the smashing other robots, I can say that I am guilty of that as well. We smashed the robot of one of the best teams at our regional (in one of only 3 matches we functioned). I am proud to say that I cheered, because it was at that point it was the only real thing our robot had done. Was it perhaps a little callous? Yes. But they were still able to repair it before the next match, and they are now going to nationals, so honestly they can't complain too much. But that moment was what really defined our entire season of work, and if that cost another team some hard work and stress then so be it. Again, this may sound a little angry, and it is probably a little too soon after such a hard loss to see this clearly, but I still think that both sides of this issue need to be observed.

[StevenB]

Originally Posted by flargen507

But I just had the experience of having to look at 30 depressed and distraught faces about a regional where our robot barely moved. Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids.

I have to disagree with this one hundred percent.

Originally Posted by Jeffy

Curious what teams do to discourage these counter-productive notions throughout a team.

I take it a little at a time as it comes. Clip from this weekend: I was at SVR and happened to be outside 254's pit when they came back from a match which had destroyed the belt inside one of their climber arms. They rolled the robot into the pit and four students immediately began to swap in a replacement. It was so cool to watch them in action, while a couple of mentors basically looked on.

Today I was talking to a parent. She began, "And if you noticed, when the Cheesy Poof's arm broke, it was all the mentors working on it." What do you say? "Actually, I was there when that happened - and it was all the students working on the 'bot."

This kind of reaction is a fundamental human tendency. There isn't a magic solution that cures it. I simply try to maintain and display a confidence that we could in fact be like them if we had the same level of passion and energy.

[Negative 9]

Originally Posted by flargen507

Many robots at any given regional have trouble scoring any points at all.

Which is exactly why these teams need to be working alongside experienced mentors so that they don't end up with a barely functional robot. It takes a very exceptional group of students to build a competitive FRC robot without any guidance.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by flargen507

In our case, our robot only moved in 3 matches the entire weekend (yes that includes practice, all of which we attended). And yes we are a student built robot, and are almost fanatically proud about being so.

Such pride seems misplaced. "We built an ineffective machine, all by ourselves! Yay for us!" It sounds like you're describing a bad situation (robot isn't very good) with a simple solution (having mentors help).

Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace. Is it the nicest thing to do? No. Is it the most gracious thing to do? No. But at that point it is one of the only ways to keep inspiring that group of kids.

If you can't find a way to "inspire" your kids other than denigrating others' good work, I am sad for your team. Why isn't it inspiring to see what the students on those other teams were able to do by partnering with their mentors? Why don't you encourage your kids to go talk with those other teams to get an idea of what really makes them great, instead of feeding them the fiction that they're only great because the robots were built by professionals?

And as for the smashing other robots, I can say that I am guilty of that as well. We smashed the robot of one of the best teams at our regional (in one of only 3 matches we functioned). I am proud to say that I cheered, because it was at that point it was the only real thing our robot had done.

You don't have to be ashamed about "smashing" another robot, but it is definitely not something to be proud of.

[edit]Unless the smashing was intentional, in which case you should be ashamed, and you should apologize. If it were up to me, I'd issue each member of your team his or her own personal yellow card for such an action.[/edit]

Was it perhaps a little callous? Yes. But they were still able to repair it before the next match, and they are now going to nationals, so honestly they can't complain too much. But that moment was what really defined our entire season of work, and if that cost another team some hard work and stress then so be it.

It looks like your team has some growing up to do. I hope it happens before you lose the opportunity to inspire your older students to feel good about bettering themselves instead of bringing others down.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

If you can't find a way to "inspire" your kids other than denigrating others' good work, I am sad for your team. Why isn't it inspiring to see what the students on those other teams were able to do by partnering with their mentors? Why don't you encourage your kids to go talk with those other teams to get an idea of what really makes them great, instead of feeding them the fiction that they're only great because the robots were built by professionals?
...
You don't have to be ashamed about "smashing" another robot, but it is definitely not something to be proud of.

Alan, I would argue that you SHOULD be ashamed of "smashing" another robot. Senseless destruction of material is not something we should tolerate. You can play effective defense without damaging the other robots. (Arguably, you can play MORE effective defense without damaging them). As someone who has had our robot banged around a fair bit this year I can say that teams that make dirty hits with the intent of doing damage just irk me.


Regarding the other part I quoted. I'm going to channel my inner IKE for a bit and recommend that the poster read a book called Tribal Leadership. There's an interesting bit in it about about the language used by groups in various stages. Sounds like the person you quoted is in the "I'm great (and you're not)" stage. I suggest they observe other teams and how they operate. Emulate them and see if we can realize that we can all be great.

[jee7s]

You know, I had written a long reply to this with all sorts of pointed comments about the flawed logic here. But, when I tried to preview it, I lost it. This was probably for the best.

I'll say that it sure seems like flargen507 sees FIRST as a zero sum game. That one team's success is due to another team's failure. And, that justifies teaching high school kids that there's no reason to improve because those better "mentor bots" are somehow illegitimate.

I've been there. I've been with the team when their robot didn't move AT ALL for a regional. I've been there with the team that poured their heart and soul into their robot and didn't get to play on Saturday afternoon. But, as they have reminded me, I told them that they did hard work, they learned, and they made progress to being a better team. That's what really counts.

And, for the remainder of my comments, I refer you to JVN:

http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/02/open-...to-haters.html
http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/03/anoth...re-change.html

[PayneTrain]

I have been involved with teams that can trace their greatest successes by learning from glaring failures that resulted in ineffective robots. Let's try working on self-evaluation and suggesting a positive, constant pursuit of the impossible goal of perfection and not fighting over the same pound of flesh that has been picked at by the hivemind for years.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I have been involved with teams that can trace their greatest successes by learning from glaring failures that resulted in ineffective robots. Let's try working on self-evaluation and suggesting a positive, constant pursuit of the impossible goal of perfection and not fighting over the same pound of flesh that has been picked at by the hivemind for years.

Same here. 3929's robots so far have been comparative failures to what the team has been trying to achieve. The same can be said for 2495's past robots. 3929's students, since the team's inception, have always been taught to look up to those better than them and to achieve greatness from within, not bring others down. They had what I could call a 90% student designed robot that did not perform well at their first event this season. However, these kids aren't taught to give up and point fingers to other teams for having better machines, they're taught to correct issues and improve for the next event. At their second event they did comparatively well and were even semifinalists. 2495's students in the past have had some sort of attitude about "better" teams, but all it takes is someone to show them that it is better to fix things in your own team than to pick out what you think are flaws in another.

I think that if you are sheltering students with the notion that teams around them have unfair advantages, you are underestimating the resolve of a truly competitive student. Don't babysit students and tell them there's nothing wrong with how things went down, mentors and students all need criticism to learn. In a few years, 3929's students and mentors will have learned from mistakes and will look to other teams to grab positive ideals from others to make themselves better. In the end, I don't mind too much who has what amount of involvement in the production of a machine, it is just a machine, I do care that the mentors are teaching their students about the desire to be better by correcting flaws within the team.

[flargen507]

I should probably reply to this outpouring of apparent anger at my previous post. I want you all to understand something. I don't like hurting other teams. I do not try to say that all the other teams who are better than us are evil mentor bots who cheat their way through the competition. And I do not condone the unerring right to destroy others' hard work. That being said, I still think that what I said was accurate and not unFIRST-like. Coming off a tough loss, I try to console people by saying that we did do a good job, and they worked hard, and we should strive to beat that team next year. That can lead to some villianization. It's not intentional, but that's what can come up. I would also like to say that I in no way represent the rest of 159, who may disagree with my opinions. I simply think that teams who are in the situation the original poster described should try to be understanding of the hardships other teams undergo. The situation is usually a lot more complicated than it appears. I do regret the amount of anger that came out in that last post, as I said it was probably a bad time to pick up this thread. But I still think that some of those principles are sound and that I do the best I can to motivate and inspire the kids on my team. For those of you who are angry about the way I handled the situation, please let me know how you think I should handle it, and I will take it under serious consideration. I am by no means the greatest individual, but I do try to improve myself. That being said, I encourage all of you to try and understand the situation I am coming from, and at least give my point some thought, even if you don't agree with it.

[jee7s]

Originally Posted by flargen507

I do regret the amount of anger that came out in that last post, as I said it was probably a bad time to pick up this thread.

There's that great count-to-ten rule that works here. And, by the way, I think we all feel frustration or disappointment at situations you describe. It's a matter of how you handle those emotions that defines your attitude.

Originally Posted by flargen507

For those of you who are angry about the way I handled the situation, please let me know how you think I should handle it, and I will take it under serious consideration.

I wouldn't assign "angry" as the emotion associated with my response. Based on what I saw from other posters, I think it's more a matter of concern. Concern for you that this attitude is what you have taken on. Concern for your team and the message they are receiving. And, concern for FIRST and the communication of the culture that we are trying to engender.

Breaking the mold of the beat your opponent into the ground attitude that pervades many sporting environments is a daunting task. This is a good data point for situations to watch out for and intervene in, if such intervention is possible.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by flargen50

Do you want me to look at them and tell them that our robot lost because the other teams were just way better than us and all of their hard work and pain wasn't good enough? Sometimes to keep a group of kids to not just quit out of anger you have to console them. Sometimes that means telling them that those other teams were a bunch of mentor bots just to keep the peace.

Originally Posted by flargen507

For those of you who are angry about the way I handled the situation, please let me know how you think I should handle it, and I will take it under serious consideration.

Don't lie to your students. Your robot lost because the other teams WERE better than you and your team's work wasn't good enough. Full stop.

That sucks, but that's how it goes sometimes. You are doing the kids on your team a tremendous disservice by lying to them and you're minimizing the hard work of others at the same time. This is a lousy attitude.

We're a good team and we had a bad season. I had to deal with some pretty upset kids after things ended for us at our second event, but I did the best I could to explain that we still accomplished a lot of good and the only reason we didn't go further and do better was because we got some things wrong. It was our fault.

These kids are a few years away from living and working in a real world where nobody is going to lie to them to protect their feelings and, sometimes, no matter how hard they work at something, someone is going to do it better. When we lose; when we have a bad time at things on the field, we can choose to blame that on others or we can use that experience to teach our students to understand what went wrong and to use that knowledge in the future to make things for us and for others better than they are today.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by flargen507

I should probably reply to this outpouring of apparent anger at my previous post.

I'm not angry at you. I'm frustrated, mostly with myself.

In my relatively short time in the FIRST community it seems like we are stuck listening in on a broken record, constantly slinging the phrases of "mentor-built robots" and "x was un-GP to y, see how GP I am for telling you?" and then the ensuing chorus that barks at those posters. It's clear that as a community we are not adequately addressing the problem because it results in good teams with bright, talented, and driven students and mentors erecting glass ceilings for themselves while the community at large jumps on top of the ceilings and generates a lot of noise without saying anything.

However, I think this is whole FIRST thing is the kind of organization designed to make me feel like no one, myself included, is ever doing enough to help the program reach its true potential. It will never peak, we will never fix everything, we'll always try to make it perfect, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by flargen507

I encourage all of you to try and understand the situation I am coming from, and at least give my point some thought, even if you don't agree with it.

No. I will never give the side of celebrating mediocrity a thought.

That's precisely what you are doing, you are consoling yourself with the thought that, while you failed at achieving the game challenge you are still better than those punks who had their mentors build it all for them! You are celebrating failure. And that's on top of the fact that you are demonizing the very teams that get what FIRST is about.

And you know what? Your students need to hear that. They need to hear that they need to get their butts out there and fundraise and make partnerships with industry. When 79 didn't play in eliminations at CMP last year after seeding 9th I didn't console our kids. They asked why we didn't play and I told them honestly, "because we sucked, we didn't work hard enough. We felt entitled to success. This is what that kind of attitude gets". And yes, it angered some students. And I'm sure quite a few parents didn't particularly enjoy me telling their kids that. But we hit the ground running this year and most of the kids I told that to? They worked their butts off.

I guess my entire point is, I won't consider your thought process because it is dangerous. It is poisonous. I will never accept failure and you shouldn't either.

[EricDrost]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

But we hit the ground running this year and most of the kids I told that to? They worked their butts off.

Most? This is also a pretty good indicator that no two students are the same and that some may need individualized responses in situations like this. Especially because there's quite a large gap in emotional maturity from the most mature to the least mature students (or all people for that matter).

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by EricDrost

Most? This is also a pretty good indicator that no two students are the same and that some may need individualized responses in situations like this. Especially because there's quite a large gap in emotional maturity from the most mature to the least mature students (or all people for that matter).

I say most because a few graduated... I, of course, presented these facts in the language that was most appropriate for the particular student or group.