UNgracious UNprofessionalism

[Racer26]

Nice to see that someone on 159 'gets it'. I would have expected as much from such a team. I only hope you can get the message across to the others.

I know how much I've struggled internally in my own teams to get them to stop looking at 1114/2056 like they have an unfair advantage. Yes, they have an advantage, but the important question is why do they have that advantage? (they worked hard for it) and how do we acquire similar things such that we can compete on the same level? (work hard).

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

In all the threads that discuss mentor-built robots, not once have I read an explanation as to WHY this is bad. It is just generally assumed to be wrong by most, and the debate becomes whether or not the mentor-built accusations are true.

The debate devolves into a question of whether the accusations are true, because simply put, if they're untrue then the argument is moot. If a "mentor-built" robot doesn't exist (and I'm fairly firmly convinced that it doesn't) then an argument about why they are bad is irrelevant.

Let's set that aside for a minute anyway. The goals of the program are to inspire young people to get involved in STEM fields. Does participating on a team with a mentor-built, winning robot do that? Yes, it does. I agree, that it is likely not the most effective way, but it DOES achieve the goals. I know of exactly ZERO teams that operate this way. Much less the most successful teams among us.

Every example of those top echelon of teams that get painted with the 'mentor-built' brush that I can think of, in actuality, are the teams who've fostered some of the strongest relationships with their sponsors, and have students and mentors working together better than any other teams. I would count 67, 118, 148, 217, 254, 1114, 2056, and many more in this group.

I speak all this as an 11 year participant in FRC that has never won a blue banner in 17 regional events + 1 FIRST Championship (registered through the waitlist) of competition (attended 20 regionals+CMP+6xOffseasons).

1075 won 2 offseasons, both in 2008, with a robot that was, for all intents and purposes, a clone of Simbot SS.

I feel this taught us an important lesson: that with our relatively modest fabrication abilities, we were able to successfully build a machine with a proven winning design, and then go and win with it. What we needed to do to have more success at the official events was to iron out the design process.

I'm still learning. First with 1075, and now with 4343. I watch 1114 and 2056 (and the others like them) incessantly. I occasionally engage their members to learn about the inner workings of their teams. I DO agree with many posters that find some members of 1114 and 2056 seem cold and uninterested in conversation, but I suspect that this is an artifact of being bombarded by constant accusations of not playing fair. Some of their members are much better at 'rising above the hate' than others, to which I say: They're humans. They're not perfect. Additionally, talking to them at competitions, while easiest, is also the highest stress time for them. They have high expectations, and a reputation of being the best to uphold. Catch them on a lunch break, or in the offseason, and they're much more approachable.

Like Karthik frequently quotes:

Originally Posted by Vince Lombardi

Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Racer26

1075 won 2 offseasons, both in 2008, with a robot that was, for all intents and purposes, a clone of Simbot SS.


...
I DO agree with many posters that find some members of 1114 and 2056 seem cold and uninterested in conversation, but I suspect that this is an artifact of being bombarded by constant accusations of not playing fair. Some of their members are much better at 'rising above the hate' than others, to which I say: They're humans. They're not perfect. Additionally, talking to them at competitions, while easiest, is also the highest stress time for them. They have high expectations, and a reputation of being the best to uphold. Catch them on a lunch break, or in the offseason, and they're much more approachable.

Racer, I'm gonna pick your brain about that first part... mostly for a presentation I am working on. Expect a PM shortly.

I'm going to toot my own horn for a bit and point to an interview we did with 1114 a while back. It breaks down their entire process in their own words. They were incredibly open with us. I've never felt they were cold at all. http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-98466/TS-509845.mp3

Reminds me that I should continue that series of Inside Look casts...

[Grim Tuesday]

I had very high hopes for this thread because it was actually a different topic than the classic students and mentor built robots. But after reading page four of this thread, all I can think of is this image:




As for dealings with members of 'elite' teams, if you are attending Championships, I would highly suggest just having a chat with some of them and trying to learn from them. On Thursday night last year, I went to 2056's pit just to admire their robot and didn't find any of the students or adults in their pit to be cold in any way, just a nice bunch of people who were completely willing to talk about how their team and their robot works.

[jmiller48167]

After reading through to rules for the umpteenth time , I could NOT find anything talking about the relationship of mentor vs student design or manufacture. So I will give my opinion.

This program is about building relationship WITH sponsors, mentors, and students. It is to help students work WITH the professionals not FOR the professional. Professionals can and are both students and mentors. Some students are absolutely capable of teaching adults. I personally have seen students who design and manufacture circles around me and tip my cap to them.

So each team should evaluate their own capabilities and leave others capabilities to them.

[flargen507]

I know for most of you seeing this that you are sick of seeing this name tag come up, but I hope you are a bit happier by the end. First, I would like to apologize to the entire FIRST Community for what I said yesterday. I want you all to know that I am doing this of my own accord, and it has nothing to do with any affiliation with 159. To that end, I will no longer be using my Chief Delphi account in any manner, so you will not have to worry about seeing something like this from me again. I think it is to the point of this post and the original thread topic that during a very long and stressful competition, people can forget what they are doing and say stupid things. I hope you all realize that this stupidity on my part was entirely mine, and had nothing to do with 159. Again I am sorry, but I hope someday we can see past this and the goal of FIRST to bring people together may be fully realized.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by flargen507

I know for most of you seeing this that you are sick of seeing this name tag come up, but I hope you are a bit happier by the end. First, I would like to apologize to the entire FIRST Community for what I said yesterday. I want you all to know that I am doing this of my own accord, and it has nothing to do with any affiliation with 159. To that end, I will no longer be using my Chief Delphi account in any manner, so you will not have to worry about seeing something like this from me again. I think it is to the point of this post and the original thread topic that during a very long and stressful competition, people can forget what they are doing and say stupid things. I hope you all realize that this stupidity on my part was entirely mine, and had nothing to do with 159. Again I am sorry, but I hope someday we can see past this and the goal of FIRST to bring people together may be fully realized.

You live and you learn, don't leave Chief Delphi because of this. You'll figure it out.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by flargen507

I know for most of you seeing this that you are sick of seeing this name tag come up, but I hope you are a bit happier by the end. First, I would like to apologize to the entire FIRST Community for what I said yesterday. I want you all to know that I am doing this of my own accord, and it has nothing to do with any affiliation with 159. To that end, I will no longer be using my Chief Delphi account in any manner, so you will not have to worry about seeing something like this from me again. I think it is to the point of this post and the original thread topic that during a very long and stressful competition, people can forget what they are doing and say stupid things. I hope you all realize that this stupidity on my part was entirely mine, and had nothing to do with 159. Again I am sorry, but I hope someday we can see past this and the goal of FIRST to bring people together may be fully realized.

CD is a great place to open your mouth and put your foot in it. We all do it... frequently. It's up to the community to let us know when we're doing that (cuz some of us are really used to the taste of shoe...).

I know I wasn't angry at your posts. I disagreed on a very emotional level with them, but I was not angry at you. Your posts showed a frustration at something. That's understandable, FIRST is stressful. Heck, it's even admirable.

Looking out for your students is important. But so is doing it in the right way. You were taking wrong actions for the right reasons. So, kudos for your heart being in the right place...

Lurk a little, observe, ask some questions. This is a community and our job is to help each other be better as students, mentors, and as people.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Everyone screws up every now and then.

[Ian Curtis]

I think the first 70 posts of this oldie-but-goodie "Dealing with disapointments [sic]" are worth reading. (gets off topic after that)

Originally Posted by Madison

Don't lie to your students. Your robot lost because the other teams WERE better than you and your team's work wasn't good enough. Full stop.

This is my outlook on life too. At the same time, I think it is important in how you phrase it. Disappointment can come in many different forms. For some teams, not winning a regional is the disappointment. For other teams, being a quarterfinalist is the disappointment. For some, not making the big dance is the disappointment, and for some having their robot barely move is the disappointment!

For the teams that miss out on the regional win, "We weren't good enough" is likely a great motivator. For the teams that struggled to move, that's probably rubbing salt in an open wound, and your gang of teenagers may be seconds away from giving you a death glare normally reserved for their parents.

For 1778, last year the kids were in the "struggled to move" bucket, and that is no fun for anyone. This year, we were in the "disappointed to miss the big dance" bucket but the team made huge strides. We put a working robot in the bag for the first time in living memory, and had scored more points 7 seconds into autonomous mode of our first match than we had the entire preceding season! Attached is the graph I made of our progress by CCWM (extrapolation is never dangerous )

We weren't good enough. You never can be. But I'm very excited about next year, and you can bet we'll be better.

Originally Posted by Vince Lombardi

The dictionary is the only place that success comes before work. Hard work is the price we must pay for success. I think you can accomplish anything if you're willing to pay the price.

The magic trick is figuring out how to motivate people to do the hard work before success comes knocking.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

I think the first 70 posts of this oldie-but-goodie "Dealing with disapointments [sic]" are worth reading. (gets off topic after that)

Oh hey look at this noob!

Real talk - I learned a ton from the responses in that thread. Notice that I was just a student on 11 back then and read the post I made in this thread.

You learn a lot about how to respond and deal with disappointment if you just leave yourself open to learning from others. I tend to no longer make judgements on other teams and I tend to avoid making assumptions about those who do better than me, it is just not productive. Learning to reach out and asking for help is probably the best way to grow as leader.

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

I think the first 70 posts of this oldie-but-goodie "Dealing with disapointments [sic]" are worth reading. (gets off topic after that)



This is my outlook on life too. At the same time, I think it is important in how you phrase it. Disappointment can come in many different forms. For some teams, not winning a regional is the disappointment. For other teams, being a quarterfinalist is the disappointment. For some, not making the big dance is the disappointment, and for some having their robot barely move is the disappointment!

For the teams that miss out on the regional win, "We weren't good enough" is likely a great motivator. For the teams that struggled to move, that's probably rubbing salt in an open wound, and your gang of teenagers may be seconds away from giving you a death glare normally reserved for their parents.

For 1778, last year the kids were in the "struggled to move" bucket, and that is no fun for anyone. This year, we were in the "disappointed to miss the big dance" bucket but the team made huge strides. We put a working robot in the bag for the first time in living memory, and had scored more points 7 seconds into autonomous mode of our first match than we had the entire preceding season! Attached is the graph I made of our progress by CCWM (extrapolation is never dangerous )

We weren't good enough. You never can be. But I'm very excited about next year, and you can bet we'll be better.



The magic trick is figuring out how to motivate people to do the hard work before success comes knocking.

Right, and that doesn't just go for teams who have never had success, it also applies for veteran teams who have had a "slump" for a few years.

Team 1806 has had it's share of off years (Granted, it's a good thing when you can call years in the 70+ percentile of robot performance a slump), and it's taken the utmost dedication of our mentors and students to pull ourselves out of it. Adversity and failure needs to become a challenge to better yourself for the future, not an excuse to continue to have issues.

As a team from a small town in Missouri that doesn't (yet) have access to CNC Mills, 3-D Printers, Water Jets, etc. we can honestly say that you don't have to be the team who has NASA-designed, powder-coated robots to be competitive in FRC. You just need a group of motivated, intelligent people who can make great design choices and then execute on that design with the resources available to them.

Also, fun fact: The protective lexan lattice on our 2013 robot is actually recycled from the hopper on our 2009 robot.

[Jeffy]

Originally Posted by Woolly

Also, fun fact: The protective lexan lattice on our 2013 robot is actually recycled from the hopper on our 2009 robot.

That explains the extreme success. 1806 was the most underrated bot in 2009 and made my top 10.


The bots that are created by 1806 are always bots that I could see myself possessing the skills to create and can be much more inspiring (especially to students) as compared to even more "elite" teams.



note: While 1806's success speaks for itself, I still want to say this isn't an attempt to belittle it at all.

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by Jeffy

That explains the extreme success. 1806 was the most underrated bot in 2009 and made my top 10.


The bots that are created by 1806 are always bots that I could see myself possessing the skills to create and can be much more inspiring (especially to students) as compared to even more "elite" teams.



note: While 1806's success speaks for itself, I still want to say this isn't an attempt to belittle it at all.

Why would that belittle our success? I may be a programmer, but I'd say a sign of good engineering is when your peers take one look at what you've made and say "Why didn't we do that?!".

[Cody Burd]

this video is what i was discussing about. about one minute in we were forced out and then our robot died on the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3AXM...yQz SWZoiaBrK