Using Discs to Block Full Court Shooters

[dtengineering]

At the two events I've been to this year, full-court shooters (948 and 4334) were on the winning alliance. The general strategy was to have the FCS get into position and the #3 pick run interference to keep the opposing alliance's "blocker" robot away.

Alliances without a "blocker" may as well have packed up and gone home, but a good blocker could really cut down on the effectiveness of even the best FCS machines.

The rules clearly limit a "blocker" robot to 84" in height, but I can't seem to find anything that would prevent a blocker from grasping a disc and raising the disc above 84". Likewise, while a robot may never exceed a 54" cylinder, a disc is certainly allowed to leave the cylinder.

For teams heading to St. Louis, knowing that they aren't a great shooter, and are only a 10 point climber, would it not be possible to use the 30 pound withholding allowance to build a lightweight mechanism that would grasp three discs using grippers right at the edges of the robot size envelope, and become a blocker with an effective height of 94" and width of 60+"?

A quick sketch would explain this even better... but if you've read this far, you probably get the idea. I feel kind of bad suggesting this, because full court shooters that can rapidly hit "three" after "three" are a thing of beauty. (Yeah, 948, that's you I'm talking about!)

But just think how much more effective a shot blocker could be if they were using the discs to extend their reach.

Jason

[CalTran]

It's an interesting concept, and I must say that when I read the title of the thread, I thought you were talking about using discs in a "PULL!" fashion!

I'm not sure how the ruling would go on this one, but from a quick skim I would say that it'd be a legal idea.

[Gregor]

Most successful elimination alliances will have every robot score at least 18 points in autonomous. This means that you cannot use the pre-loaded disks as a blocker. It is still possible, but it means you need to figure out a way to get disks up from the feeder slot to 90".

Also, I've not seen a FCS that was able to shoot over a 84" blocker. Some can shooter over 60" blockers, so a 66" blocker might be more useful.

[Joe Ross]

This is what I thought of: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=105023

[EricH]

Hmm...

Off-hand, I can't think of any rules that it would violate. However, I do think that this is pushing the envelope a little too far, and if implemented with any success will result in a rule for next year reading something to the effect of "Robots may not use game objects in their construction" and another to the effect of "Robots may not intentionally use game objects to interfere with other game objects".

[zmeves]

Interesting idea. The rules limit the FCS to 60", however, so any 84" tall robot should be able to block of its own accord. There are very few disc flight paths that will pass over the blocker and still make a goal. If launched at the steepness of angle required to go over the blocker, a disc will reverse direction once it drifts back down.

Unless the FCS was a "hammer-bot"....

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by EricH

Hmm...

Off-hand, I can't think of any rules that it would violate. However, I do think that this is pushing the envelope a little too far, and if implemented with any success will result in a rule for next year reading something to the effect of "Robots may not use game objects in their construction" and another to the effect of "Robots may not intentionally use game objects to interfere with other game objects".

Right, not to mention the fact that a 70"-90" actuating blocker would probably not be limited to success in blocking FCS robots. At 70", you're right in a lot of pyramid runners' flight paths.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by CalTran

It's an interesting concept, and I must say that when I read the title of the thread, I thought you were talking about using discs in a "PULL!" fashion!

I'm not sure how the ruling would go on this one, but from a quick skim I would say that it'd be a legal idea.

I can tell I've been missing being involved with a team, because since kickoff I've been thinking "How would I play this game, if I had to play this game." It doesn't help that this is probably the coolest FRC game in my ten year's of FIRST involvement. The frisbees just look so much like Star Wars laser blasts when viewed edge-on.

Anyway, I was thinking about fans, and recall seeing some posts about their effectiveness... and figure they might have an impact on an FCS... as the shooter has to be lined up almost perfectly to hit... then I started thinking about how I'd get past a "blocker" with an FCS robot (shooting outside the arena, and banking the shot back in, perhaps?)

But in reality, the real key is to use a #3 pick to protect the FCS and keep the blocker "out of their face", so that even an 84" extension isn't quite enough.

But using discs to add to the height and width of a blocker robot would make the #3 pick's job of protecting the FCS even tougher.

So I figured I'd put the idea out there... I don't know if anyone has tried it yet this season, but I'd be delighted if I saw it "pop up" at Championships.

Jason

P.S. Yeah... you'd likely have to sacrifice three discs in auto to make it worthwhile... but if your shooter isn't that great anyway....

[zmeves]

Originally Posted by Woolly

Right, not to mention the fact that a 70"-90" actuating blocker would probably not be limited to success in blocking FCS robots. At 70", you're right in a lot of pyramid runners' flight paths.

Any robot attempting to block another's pyramid shot can only be 60" tall, you can only be over 60" inside your Autozone (which is where opposing FCS's shoot from)

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by zmeves

Any robot attempting to block another's pyramid shot can only be 60" tall, you can only be over 60" inside your Autozone (which is where opposing FCS's shoot from)

70" is taking into account the height of the Frisbee on top of your 60" blocker while allowing a 1.5" grip on the Frisbee.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by zmeves

Any robot attempting to block another's pyramid shot can only be 60" tall, you can only be over 60" inside your Autozone (which is where opposing FCS's shoot from)

But if you were to have your blocker rigged such that everything except some number of discs (less than or equal to 4, of course) were able to drop below 60", could the refs call you for being above the height limit?

Not if it was retracted. Not under current rules. But the effective blocking height is going to be closer to 70" than 60".

[zmeves]

Originally Posted by Woolly

70" is taking into account the height of the Frisbee on top of your 60" blocker while allowing a 1.5" grip on the Frisbee.

Ah, understood. I misread it at first.
Yes, that could make a difference for blocking pyramid shots if the robot could maintain a grip on the disc while holding up to some very hard shots.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by zmeves

Ah, understood. I misread it at first.
Yes, that could make a difference for blocking pyramid shots if the robot could maintain a grip on the disc while holding up to some very hard shots.

And could have been our chance to block some of your shots at Razorback...but alas your shots cleared our noodle tips.

[Grim Tuesday]

Looks like a good one for Q&A. Posted:

Q623:
Do DISCS under the active control of a ROBOT count towards the limits defined by the PLAYING CONFIGURATION? STARTING CONFIGURATION?

(Come one guys, we can make it to Q639!)

[Woolly]

Well, hey, if you already have the discs at 90", what would it take to be able to kick them out into the pyramid goal reliably?