All District FIRST?

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by dodar

When FIRST gets to that critical mass point, I see it looking like this: 50 state districts, 6 Canadian Districts, 1 Mexican District, 1 Israeli District, 1 Oceanic District, and probably a few more unknown districts(atleast unkown for now).

I like your vision for growth, but I don't think we'll ever be organized quite that way. Two main reasons:
1. Take Montana. The population density makes it unlikely that they'll ever have enough teams to make a stand-alone district. But even if they do, they'll never have as many teams as Michigan or California or Ontario (or even Missouri), so the districts will be very unbalanced if organized by state & province.
2. Take Missouri. FRC teams are concentrated around Kansas City & St. Louis; this has lead to some very natural relationships/rivalries with teams in Kansas & Illinois, respectively. Teams cross the state to go to the "other" regional (expect like this year, when both GKC & STL were week 3 ) but the majority of the relationships are with the teams in the other states. It'd be nice to keep some of that.

I'm not saying us on the MO side of GKC can't, or won't, be able to recover from not seeing the KS teams, but we really wouldn't want to (I don't think, anyway; this isn't a discussion I've had with other teams in the area). However the district boundaries are drawn, they have to keep this in mind.

I don't think it's as simple as letting teams attend events in other districts; you set up a potential issue with how points are earned towards the District Championship. Maybe those rivalries just transfer to the "super district" or "regional" championships, but that just doesn't feel right to me. I don't have a good answer -- I've thought about this, but no where near enough -- but it's one of many questions that are going to have to be addressed.

[apalrd]

Originally Posted by Jaxom

I don't think it's as simple as letting teams attend events in other districts; you set up a potential issue with how points are earned towards the District Championship. Maybe those rivalries just transfer to the "super district" or "regional" championships, but that just doesn't feel right to me. I don't have a good answer -- I've thought about this, but no where near enough -- but it's one of many questions that are going to have to be addressed.

As long as all district events play the same number of matches per team, under the same game rules, there is no reason points wouldn't be able to transfer between regions.

An original intent of district events in Michigan was to open extra spots at events (after each team had registered for their 2) to outside teams, this was not allowed. Later, when MAR was formed, both sides (FiM and MAR) wanted to allow teams to go to districts in the other region, this was not allowed either. However, as MAR events are extremely similar to FiM events (same number of matches per team), there would be no reason (from the point system and rankings perspective) to prevent an FiM or MAR team from attending the other region's event and receiving points. Even if FiM and MAR used different point values in their point systems, it would be extremely easy to apply the FiM points to a MAR event for an FiM team attending a MAR event to be properly ranked in the FiM rankings (the same goes for a MAR team attending an FiM event).

[1018sophmore]

Indiana is hopefully going to the district model either this year or next gonna be interesting

[bardd]

Two problems with this theory:
Most international teams that aren't Israeli don't have the possibility to attend more than event (sometimes including the championship). Israelis usually can't compete outside except CMP, but that's less of a problem because we have our own regional.

Another problem is it'll be really hard to move Israel to districts. There aren't enough venues that can hold events of that magnitude. In fact, I can only think of two or three places, and it'll be hard to get these places to have the events (moneywise and schedulewise). In addition, Israel has about 50 teams, and for districts to have a point you'd need at-least 100 teams, and I don't believe Israel can hold that number of teams.

[Conor Ryan]

I'm one of the only people that has attended/volunteered at both a MAR and Michigan district events. There are awesome things about districts, and there is also a lot left to be desired. I also have extensive experience with off season events, which districts are actually modeled after.

1) I'm not entirely a fan of districts in the first place. I'm not a fan of the current district model.

I'm a big fan of the extra cost associated with a full regional, the bigger venues, professional Event Managers, professional AV staff, the professional grade radios, the overall show aspect, there are a lot more details that go into an event than just putting up a field and having tables for a pit. I know MAR is starting to learn this and has started purchasing more AV equipment, but that's not everything. If you leave a regional after working it for 4 days and you had a professional team with all the right resources, life is so much easier/less frustrating.

2) The amount of stress that districts put on the core volunteer group is grossly underestimated.

I think that every team participating in a district model should be required to donate a volunteer for each event they attend. Key volunteer experience and quality is... KEY, districts are getting there, but having an MC half as good as Blair or Mark is next to impossible. You are lucky in districts if you have 4 people out of the 12 key volunteers (Event Chair, Event Manager, Volunteer Coordinator, FTA, Field Supervisor, Lead Queuer, Lead Robot Inspector, Head Ref, MC, Game Announcer, Scorekeeper, Lead CSA, Pit Admin) have experience in similar roles at events greater than 3 years. It really takes about that long to become a well rounded, quality volunteer.

If you are in a potential/already district area, start volunteering! Not all of us have enough vacation days to go around!

3) There needs to be a way that international/isolated teams can interact/play.

4) Intra-district play needs to happen.

5) The super regional idea is the coolest thing in FRC's future.
It is starting to resemble the other March Madness...

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

...I think that every team participating in a district model should be required to donate a volunteer for each event they attend...

..4) Intra-district play needs to happen...

1) I believe FiM already does this.

2) Yes, I agree.

[Ivan Malik]

FiM requires 2 volunteers per event from each team

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik

FiM requires 2 volunteers per event from each team

Really? What happens if you have a small team and cannot give up 2 people to volunteer?

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by dodar

Really? What happens if you have a small team and cannot give up 2 people to volunteer?

It doesn't have to be at an event you're competing at.

For instance, this year I volunteered at a district my team usually competes at that we didn't go to.

[Ivan Malik]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

It doesn't have to be at an event you're competing at.

For instance, this year I volunteered at a district my team usually competes at that we didn't go to.

Correct. Also they only have to be a volunteer for two days of the event. I have also heard of a few exceptions, teams only providing 1 volunteer, but for all 3 days (Thursday night load-in)

Also they don't have to be team members, parents, brothers and sisters over the age of 14, friends, random people, etc. As long as they fill in that they are from #### team in VIMS the team gets credit. I've heard of a few instances where other teams have loaned people to other teams for this reason.

[Conor Ryan]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

1) I believe FiM already does this.

2) Yes, I agree.

Awesome! Those are surprises I love to hear! Hopefully it'll be used in more places in the future, 2 volunteers per team is a good place to start. More key volunteers are what is really needed, and that can't be provided on demand really.

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

You're a big fan of the extra cost? Yes, we like the regionals, but I think many teams would beg to differ here. If I was in charge of a team and you told me I could pay $5000 for a flashy regional, 9 matches and one shot at eliminations, or pay $5000 for 2 events in high school/college gyms, 24 matches and 2 shots at eliminations, I'd pick the latter in a heartbeat. Money aside, as a student, I would have loved to be able to attend one, let alone 2 regular season events with 40 or less teams, something I've never done. The spectacle isn't everything.

1) Playing matches isn't everything either, especially for the teams that had a rough year with the robot they put on the field.

Playing is not always what inspires everyone, sometimes its the theatrics and production around everything that makes it awe inspiring. The best solution is probably to find a more cost-effective way to bring the theatrics to the district model. I feel overall there was too much of a compromise on cost.

2) If you want to get more funding, the show part really is great for going after money. I've seen prospective sponsors turn into actual sponsors much faster at a Regional than a District. It adds to the awe and gives the whole organization a much more professional face. In particular its helpful for raising funding at the event level, regionals wouldn't cost so much if the events were able to fundraise for themselves better.

I guess the best way to summarize my complaint with the current district model/format/presentation is that it lost too much of the professionalism associated with a regional in order to cut costs of events.

[DampRobot]

Could someone please explain the Super Regional idea? I've heard the term before, I'm just not exactly sure what it is or how qualifying would work.

Also, I highly recommend reading that FiM FAQ whitepaper. It actually got me excited about California moving to district competition in the near future!

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Could someone please explain the Super Regional idea? I've heard the term before, I'm just not exactly sure what it is or how qualifying would work.

Also, I highly recommend reading that FiM FAQ whitepaper. It actually got me excited about California moving to district competition in the near future!

The Super Regional is the next step between District Championships and Worlds. Basically when the entire country/world has transitioned to Districts, the concept is there will once again be too many teams for the World Championship, and that they will need another layer of qualification to finally make it to worlds. So a team would potentially play 2 Local District Events, District Championship, Super Regional and World Championship (or 5 events!) in order to win Worlds. FIRST mentions that it is very very very far off in the future, and they aren't even sure if the concept is needed or fully fleshed out.... but its a potential.

And I agree, the whitepaper is incredibly helpful and just like we always say "Read the Manual", anyone who wants to discuss districts should read that white paper, NE's proposal (maybe updated soon?), and the FiM rules supplement.

[BJC]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Doesn't matter to the teams, it still costs $17 000.

Actually, it does matter -- A LOT. The fact that FiM attempts to make the MSC a free event each year is important. As more areas enter the district system and this argument is voiced by more and more people it will eventually happen. Yes it costs $5000 now, but it will probably be free within 5 years.

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

Awesome! Those are surprises I love to hear! Hopefully it'll be used in more places in the future, 2 volunteers per team is a good place to start. More key volunteers are what is really needed, and that can't be provided on demand really.



1) Playing matches isn't everything either, especially for the teams that had a rough year with the robot they put on the field.

Playing is not always what inspires everyone, sometimes its the theatrics and production around everything that makes it awe inspiring. The best solution is probably to find a more cost-effective way to bring the theatrics to the district model. I feel overall there was too much of a compromise on cost.

2) If you want to get more funding, the show part really is great for going after money. I've seen prospective sponsors turn into actual sponsors much faster at a Regional than a District. It adds to the awe and gives the whole organization a much more professional face. In particular its helpful for raising funding at the event level, regionals wouldn't cost so much if the events were able to fundraise for themselves better.

I guess the best way to summarize my complaint with the current district model/format/presentation is that it lost too much of the professionalism associated with a regional in order to cut costs of events.

You have a fundamentally different mindset from Fim. FiM is all about getting more playing time for your money and minimizing cost so that the sport can expand. No, not every event is as fancy as a regional, but that's the point. The big show is the championship which is hallmarked by high quality in both event production and robot competitiveness.

In FiM playing matches is everything. For all the hundereds of hours put into each robot many (most) robots went to a single regional this year and competed for a grand total of 1,215 seconds (20.25 minutes). FiM promises twice the playing time allowing that team that had a rough first competiton, instead of being finished with their season, another shot to improve and compete. This difference can not be understated and is a large part of the reason why Michigan teams are so competitive compaired to other areas of the world.

In regards to aquiring funding individual districts don't have their own funding. This is umbrella'd by FiM who I don't believe has ever had trouble aquiring sponsors.

I'm not telling you to agree with me, just asking you to understand the realities of the growing sport and the steps FiM has taken to allow an increasing amount of teams to compete more for less.
Regards, Bryan

[PVCpirate]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

1) Playing matches isn't everything either, especially for the teams that had a rough year with the robot they put on the field.

Playing is not always what inspires everyone, sometimes its the theatrics and production around everything that makes it awe inspiring. The best solution is probably to find a more cost-effective way to bring the theatrics to the district model. I feel overall there was too much of a compromise on cost.

2) If you want to get more funding, the show part really is great for going after money. I've seen prospective sponsors turn into actual sponsors much faster at a Regional than a District. It adds to the awe and gives the whole organization a much more professional face. In particular its helpful for raising funding at the event level, regionals wouldn't cost so much if the events were able to fundraise for themselves better.

I guess the best way to summarize my complaint with the current district model/format/presentation is that it lost too much of the professionalism associated with a regional in order to cut costs of events.

To your first point, I would say that the second event is a game changer. For a team who usually goes to 1 regional, if they can't get their robot figured out by Friday *POOF* there goes the whole season. If the same team is in a district model, sure, the first district event may go the way of the regional. However, they now have a window of time to work in their own shop to improve the bot for their second event, and hopefully have a good performance, maybe even qualifying for their District championship. I think that is much more inspiring than having a robot that never does what it was meant to do and then going home.

That being said, I think I understand your point better now, and it makes a lot of sense, especially how it relates to sponsors and funding. I think with time, the district system will improve as more areas adopt it and FIRST HQ continues to support it, and will start to get back more of the professionalism you're talking about. After this season, we'll have a combined 7 years experience in the system between FiM and MAR, so the new ones won't be starting from scratch.