All District FIRST?

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Borderless districts (in my mind) should already be a given at some point in FIRST's future. The way I see it, you play at the district closest to you (auto-assigned), and another district of your choosing, anywhere.

The only real question mark I have is if multiple local Championships (i.e. state championships) are equidistant to your team (ex. a team in Iowa w/ state champs in Minn/Kansas/Missouri), how do you or FIRST decide which state championship you would be assigned to.
If it's team choice, could a Minn team participate in a Wisc state champ, or a UP team compete in a Minn St Champ? Could teams change st. champ assignment year-to-year? If it's FIRST assigned, how would they determine what states to group together exactly, and would these grouping fluctuate year-to-year depending on FIRST growth?

[bardd]

Two problems with this theory:
Most international teams that aren't Israeli don't have the possibility to attend more than event (sometimes including the championship). Israelis usually can't compete outside except CMP, but that's less of a problem because we have our own regional.

Another problem is it'll be really hard to move Israel to districts. There aren't enough venues that can hold events of that magnitude. In fact, I can only think of two or three places, and it'll be hard to get these places to have the events (moneywise and schedulewise). In addition, Israel has about 50 teams, and for districts to have a point you'd need at-least 100 teams, and I don't believe Israel can hold that number of teams.

[Ivan Malik]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The most flagrant example would be the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, which lacks the team density for its own district and is at least 3 hours from the nearest district and about 5 from the next closest. The district model is not the best solution for 100% of teams, but it does help the majority of teams compete more at less expense.

Its about 5 hours from Houghton to Traverse city, its about 7 hours to Flint... a bit more than you think for the western UP... For reference Duluth is 4 hours away.

Michigan has a weird tendency to be divided in half... west vs east. There are way more eastern teams than west so many eastern teams travel to the west side of the state. The west side teams tend to stay on the west coast. It really wouldn't be much different in Florida.

Districts are going to be horrendous for international teams any way you slice it...

[AlexD744]

There are a few things to consider when talking about a district system in Florida.

First, currently there are only 72 teams from Florida (FIRST site lists a few that never competed this season). Also, 3 of these teams competed exclusively at Bayou, so I assume they are panhandle teams that would not fall under the district system until there is more growth in that area. Therefore, this season we had 69 teams.

We also have 3 major pockets of team distribution: miami/orlando/tampa, with greater orlando being the big one. The ideal situation is what mike described above, but that's far far away.

Another consideration is the teams that come from international venues, specifically the DR teams (2 now, and I bet you they're growing a strong program out there since 4091 won RAS last year and EI this year).

The other consideration is the Championship. Orlando is usually week 2-3 because of UCF's spring break. If we switched to a championship, I don't know about getting UCF.


That being said, here are my thoughts. If we were to have 80 teams next year, we could fill four district events, one in each "hub" and a fourth, at a neutral location. (Maybe Ft. Myers, which is 1.5-3 hours from each of the hubs?) This would give most teams (not all) a "home" event and a far event. As growth occurs, districts could be added in north florida, melbourne and greater miami areas. Disclaimer: This is not perfect by any means, and I know nothing will happen next year. Just my thoughts as to how it could possibly be structured if we were to "take the plunge" next year. Merely food for thought.

All in all, I don't think we're ready yet, and I don't know if we'll ever be. But I do think once we make the transition, growth will speed up in the areas of the districts. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sorry that this thread is slightly de-railed

[Conor Ryan]

I'm one of the only people that has attended/volunteered at both a MAR and Michigan district events. There are awesome things about districts, and there is also a lot left to be desired. I also have extensive experience with off season events, which districts are actually modeled after.

1) I'm not entirely a fan of districts in the first place. I'm not a fan of the current district model.

I'm a big fan of the extra cost associated with a full regional, the bigger venues, professional Event Managers, professional AV staff, the professional grade radios, the overall show aspect, there are a lot more details that go into an event than just putting up a field and having tables for a pit. I know MAR is starting to learn this and has started purchasing more AV equipment, but that's not everything. If you leave a regional after working it for 4 days and you had a professional team with all the right resources, life is so much easier/less frustrating.

2) The amount of stress that districts put on the core volunteer group is grossly underestimated.

I think that every team participating in a district model should be required to donate a volunteer for each event they attend. Key volunteer experience and quality is... KEY, districts are getting there, but having an MC half as good as Blair or Mark is next to impossible. You are lucky in districts if you have 4 people out of the 12 key volunteers (Event Chair, Event Manager, Volunteer Coordinator, FTA, Field Supervisor, Lead Queuer, Lead Robot Inspector, Head Ref, MC, Game Announcer, Scorekeeper, Lead CSA, Pit Admin) have experience in similar roles at events greater than 3 years. It really takes about that long to become a well rounded, quality volunteer.

If you are in a potential/already district area, start volunteering! Not all of us have enough vacation days to go around!

3) There needs to be a way that international/isolated teams can interact/play.

4) Intra-district play needs to happen.

5) The super regional idea is the coolest thing in FRC's future.
It is starting to resemble the other March Madness...

[dodar]

Originally Posted by AlexD744

There are a few things to consider when talking about a district system in Florida.

First, currently there are only 72 teams from Florida (FIRST site lists a few that never competed this season). Also, 3 of these teams competed exclusively at Bayou, so I assume they are panhandle teams that would not fall under the district system until there is more growth in that area. Therefore, this season we had 69 teams.

We also have 3 major pockets of team distribution: miami/orlando/tampa, with greater orlando being the big one. The ideal situation is what mike described above, but that's far far away.

Another consideration is the teams that come from international venues, specifically the DR teams (2 now, and I bet you they're growing a strong program out there since 4091 won RAS last year and EI this year).

The other consideration is the Championship. Orlando is usually week 2-3 because of UCF's spring break. If we switched to a championship, I don't know about getting UCF.


That being said, here are my thoughts. If we were to have 80 teams next year, we could fill four district events, one in each "hub" and a fourth, at a neutral location. (Maybe Ft. Myers, which is 1.5-3 hours from each of the hubs?) This would give most teams (not all) a "home" event and a far event. As growth occurs, districts could be added in north florida, melbourne and greater miami areas. Disclaimer: This is not perfect by any means, and I know nothing will happen next year. Just my thoughts as to how it could possibly be structured if we were to "take the plunge" next year. Merely food for thought.

All in all, I don't think we're ready yet, and I don't know if we'll ever be. But I do think once we make the transition, growth will speed up in the areas of the districts. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sorry that this thread is slightly de-railed

I think we would just keep UCF as a district event and possibly grab the Amway Center as the FSC. But seeing as the history had with Florida, FIRST, and UCF, I could totally see UCF reserving the arena for the FSC.

[AlexD744]

Originally Posted by dodar

I think we would just keep UCF as a district event and possibly grab the Amway Center as the FSC. But seeing as the history had with Florida, FIRST, and UCF, I could totally see UCF reserving the arena for the FSC.

I would love the FSC to be at UCF, there's just a lot of history there and it's a great venue. But I guess as long as there are options in Orlando/Central Florida (which is where I'd assume the Championship would have to be), then it's not really a problem, just a consideration.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

...I think that every team participating in a district model should be required to donate a volunteer for each event they attend...

..4) Intra-district play needs to happen...

1) I believe FiM already does this.

2) Yes, I agree.

[Ivan Malik]

FiM requires 2 volunteers per event from each team

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik

FiM requires 2 volunteers per event from each team

Really? What happens if you have a small team and cannot give up 2 people to volunteer?

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by dodar

Really? What happens if you have a small team and cannot give up 2 people to volunteer?

It doesn't have to be at an event you're competing at.

For instance, this year I volunteered at a district my team usually competes at that we didn't go to.

[Donut]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

Borderless districts (in my mind) should already be a given at some point in FIRST's future. The way I see it, you play at the district closest to you (auto-assigned), and another district of your choosing, anywhere.

The only real question mark I have is if multiple local Championships (i.e. state championships) are equidistant to your team (ex. a team in Iowa w/ state champs in Minn/Kansas/Missouri), how do you or FIRST decide which state championship you would be assigned to.
If it's team choice, could a Minn team participate in a Wisc state champ, or a UP team compete in a Minn St Champ? Could teams change st. champ assignment year-to-year? If it's FIRST assigned, how would they determine what states to group together exactly, and would these grouping fluctuate year-to-year depending on FIRST growth?

Perhaps having teams declare what District they will participate in at registration would make this work. You automatically have to attend 1 District event for whichever District you select and should you qualify at the end of the season that would be the District Championship you would attend. 2nd (and 3rd and 4th) District events could be in any District and you would accumulate points there via whatever point sharing system is decided on. As an example suppose you have two teams in Iowa, one in the northern part of the state and one in the southern. One declares as part of the Wisconsin/Minnesota (WM) District while the other is part of the Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Missouri (INKM) District. Both can attend the Minneapolis (WM) and Kansas City (INKM) District events (the 2 closest events to both teams) but the northern team can attend the WM championship in Minneapolis while the southern team can attend the INKM championship in St. Louis, which are the respectively closer District Championships for both teams.

This also allows for teams in far flung places that aren't likely to ever have more than 1 event (Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico) to always attend their local event regardless of what District they decide on that year.

I'm in favor of letting teams declare their own District, then they can change Districts if new events are created closer by or the District Championship moves. For the far flung teams they can travel and see a bit of the country this way too

I think there has to be a requirement that a team attend 1 District event within a District to be eligible for that District's Championship. Otherwise there is the possibility of teams gaming the system by attending weaker events in one District (say MAR) to gain eligibility for another District's Championship (say FiM) without ever having to compete against the teams from that District prior to the Championship. Since every District Championship should be in a population center that will have a District event as well it's unlikely that a team would have a District Championship close to them but have 2 District events closer to them from a different District.

[Ivan Malik]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

It doesn't have to be at an event you're competing at.

For instance, this year I volunteered at a district my team usually competes at that we didn't go to.

Correct. Also they only have to be a volunteer for two days of the event. I have also heard of a few exceptions, teams only providing 1 volunteer, but for all 3 days (Thursday night load-in)

Also they don't have to be team members, parents, brothers and sisters over the age of 14, friends, random people, etc. As long as they fill in that they are from #### team in VIMS the team gets credit. I've heard of a few instances where other teams have loaned people to other teams for this reason.

[PVCpirate]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

1) I'm not entirely a fan of districts in the first place. I'm not a fan of the current district model.

I'm a big fan of the extra cost associated with a full regional, the bigger venues, professional Event Managers, professional AV staff, the professional grade radios, the overall show aspect, there are a lot more details that go into an event than just putting up a field and having tables for a pit. I know MAR is starting to learn this and has started purchasing more AV equipment, but that's not everything. If you leave a regional after working it for 4 days and you had a professional team with all the right resources, life is so much easier/less frustrating.

You're a big fan of the extra cost? Yes, we like the regionals, but I think many teams would beg to differ here. If I was in charge of a team and you told me I could pay $5000 for a flashy regional, 9 matches and one shot at eliminations, or pay $5000 for 2 events in high school/college gyms, 24 matches and 2 shots at eliminations, I'd pick the latter in a heartbeat. Money aside, as a student, I would have loved to be able to attend one, let alone 2 regular season events with 40 or less teams, something I've never done. The spectacle isn't everything.

5) The super regional idea is the coolest thing in FRC's future.
It is starting to resemble the other March Madness...

By today's prices, a complete season(making it to World's) in a district system would cost $17,000 in registration alone. Even if the prices go down, the cost of travel could reach thousands per student on many teams. We need to be lowering the entry barrier into FRC, not raising it.

[Ivan Malik]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

By today's prices, a complete season(making it to World's) in a district system would cost $17,000 in registration alone. Even if the prices go down, the cost of travel could reach thousands per student on many teams. We need to be lowering the entry barrier into FRC, not raising it.

This is a FIRST HQ thing. Check out Jim Zondag's white paper. FiM wants states to be free.